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is it....
From: guest , 1 months, post #1
create a character, create a story

change their gender (against their will; they do not want to be altered)

alter their mind so they like the new gender and so they desire their former gender now (which they never did before)

they have sex

because they would not have had sex with their former gender... have they now been raped?

they enjoyed the act, but they would not have performed the act without the mental alteration. Was it rape?

From: DrunkenSneech , 1 months, post #2
(This reminds me of the arguments that used to break out about the various charm enchantment spells in D&D.)

If their mind had to be altered for them to go along with the act, it's rape, same as getting someone very drunk or high to lower their inhibitions. Altering their mind and body without consent would also count as felony assault.

That being said, people who would never want to be actually raped in real life can have rape/non-consent fantasies, even violent ones, and/or other acts many would consider degrading. And some of these people will act these fantasies out in real life with consenting partners, using pre-established boundaries and safewords to ensure the fantasy remains just that. Having the fantasy acts occur to a fictional character -- even without that character's consent -- is often another level of distance that allows the author/reader to safely explore those fantasies. It isn't real. And as long as it stays fictional and people in real life don't get hurt (including harm from where the fantasies start disrupting real life or causing addiction), then IMO fantasize about whatever you want.

/just my two copper pieces

From: guest , 30 days, post #3
doesn't that make these stories where straight men are forcefully changed into woman and made to want to have sex - doesn't that make those stories rape fetish?

you mentioned D&D-
- A wizard uses Charm Person on his Fighter buddy, then "talks" him into failing the Fortitude save on the Polymorph spell. The wizard changes this guy into a woman, then "talks" this former guy into having sex.

by morning the Fighter is free of the Charm Person, so he knows what happened, and might have enjoyed the evening... while he was charmed.

It's rape? Right?

From: guest , 29 days, post #4

From: DrunkenSneech , 28 days, post #5
> doesn't that make these stories where straight men are forcefully changed into woman and
> made to want to have sex - doesn't that make those stories rape fetish?

I am just one person, but from the anecdotal evidence I've seen, most of them are not what I'd consider "rape fetish" stories. The focus in TG stories is almost always on the person being TGed and their experience(s), not the violator/rapist or the act of violation/rape itself. In TG stories, it's a literary device to enable the TG part. It's often an element or difficulty for the character to grapple with, an obstacle to overcome, even a catalyst to spur emotional/physiological development and growth. In the story, being transformed/mind-altered/mind-controlled/transformed/possessed /blackmailed/etc. without the character's consent allows the readers (and often the writer) to safely distance themselves from the responsibility and guilt for deriving some fulfillment and/or pleasure at vicariously experiencing the positive elements of the character's experiences. It was "done to them", so the character (and thus the readers) are absolved of the guilt and self-anger for not adhering to the real world's rigid rules for masculinity and femininity.

Fiction that fetishes the rape/violation act or rapist/violator itself has a completely different focus when you read it. I have read stories labeled as TG fiction where the presentation was focused on that instead of it as a means to "get to the TG part" and it was an immediate immersion breaker, often so distasteful I quit on the story (and even the author entirely).

No one I've ever met or talked to would want to be raped or mind-controlled/altered or possessed, etc, in real life. But nearly all of the TG readers I've interacted with would like to experience in real life the sensations and social interactions of presenting & socializing as another gender, having intimate and emotional relationships in that gender, experiencing childbirth as a women, or bonding with male peers as men, etc. And through fictional stories, captions, and pictures with a non-consent plot element, they can safely imagine and explore what that's like -- even if only for a brief time -- without dealing with uncomfortable guilt, imposed social strictures, unaccepting religious upbringing, or aspects of their inner authentic selves that are too painful to deal with.

I mean, many of the fictional movies I enjoy involve things like theft, lying, tricking innocents, violence, killings/murders, property damage, horror, supernatural evil, etc. They're just elements to move the story along and create interesting character interactions. I wouldn't like that stuff happening to people in real life.

From: guest , 28 days, post #6
thing is

you take a straight guy, change him into a woman then force a mental change onto him

that sounds a lot like altering him on a level that he might not want on a physical and mental way

if this sort of thing were to hit the courts, where would it go?

what would a DA say about this?

From: guest (Paparoti) , 28 days, post #7
Most of the stories do not have the mind of the main character altered though. They end up like their their new gender solely on their own free will...

From: guest , 28 days, post #8
so many stories that I see takes a straight guy, change him, then he's either jumping dick right away or (and this is what I am referring to) he is altered mentally to be a woman

fwiw - you aren't straight if you are turned into a woman and start jumping dick immediately, you are not straight

From: guest (Paparoti) , 28 days, post #9
The altering mentally stories are really a tiny part of TG genre. Why are losing sleep over this insignificant part of TG landscape?

From: guest , 27 days, post #10
not losing an ounce of sleep

I just wanted to ask if you all thought mental alteration of someone to have them have sex was like rape?

seems to me that it would be

and any story that has a straight guy change into a woman then he has sex, is either not straight or he was mentally altered

From: DrunkenSneech , 26 days, post #11
Again, the mental alteration gets back to consent. If Bob alters Ted's mind without Ted's consent, that's assault. If Bob then has sex with the now mind-altered Ted, and that's something original Ted wouldn't have done, then that's rape. But it's all fiction, so no one really got hurt, no real crime occurred.

If Ted consents and oks the changes, then no, it's probably not rape. Ted might realize he's curious about women's bodies, and so Ted consents to have Bob change him physically into a woman. Ted might be curious about how women think, and so Ted consents to have Bob change him mentally into a woman. If female Ted with her new mindset agrees to have sex with Bob, it very likely isn't rape. Ted just has a woman's version of his own brain and own personality, just with female hormones, newly rearranged nerve endings, and nifty new equipment. Bob isn't blackmailing Ted or exerting some leverage ("You have to sleep with me to turn back, femTed! Mwah-ha-ha-ha!").

What if maleTed wants to have sex as a woman, but he knows he just can't do it with even a feminine version of his brain/personality? Or he might be able to have sex, but he knows the guilt will eat him up? He could still consent to have his mind/personality changed into a not-quite-Ted the Woman or a not-at-all-Ted the Woman. He could consent to have his mind changed after the fact to forget it, or to erase his hangup. Ted still has all the control and he made the decisions with his unaltered mind, so still not rape.

What if not-quite-Ted the Woman or not-at-all-Ted the Woman agrees to make further mental changes to herself? What if this version of Ted agrees to make changes to maleTed's mind? What if this new version of Ted decides she's more real or better than originalTed? What if this Ted decides she doesn't want to change back and she's making that decision, not originalTed? Which Ted is now the "real" one who can consent to changes? Now we're getting into all kinds of potential conflicts and moral grey areas... the kind of stuff that can make interesting and engaging fiction. Which, again, is still fiction ; no one has gotten hurt, because it's still not real.


> and any story that has a straight guy change into a woman then he has sex, is
> either not straight or he was mentally altered

I'm not sure anyone could be 100% rigidly, there-will-never-be-any-exceptions, heterosexual. Likewise, I'm not sure anyone could be 100% gay or lesbian. I think most gay and straight people sit somewhere on the spectrum, but it takes something significant to make them reassess their orientation ("Hey, I never thought about it before, but I haven't gotten laid in a while, and Bob has been working out, and damn he's hot."). I've heard many real life accounts of trans people that have gotten more comfortable with their transitioning body and that're now on hormone replacement who discover that their orientation has changed a little bit, a whole lot, or maybe just in how they see a specific friend or acquaintance in a new (sexier) light.

I think that it's too limiting to expect people to always be attracted to the same types of people. And if they were always straight until they figure out that for whatever reason they now aren't straight, that doesn't mean they weren't authentically straight before, that they were somehow lying or in denial.

People are imperfect, messy creatures. Most people change as they grow both in small ways and sometimes big ways. People shouldn't be so concerned about rigid boxes for gender or sexuality. They should be honest with themselves about who they are without guilt or shame, and just try to be and become the best version of who they can be. If they decide one day that being honest means they're now more comfortable presenting as a new gender or as somewhere between the the two gender poles, that's perfectly fine. If they decide one day that they're now attracted to adults of a different gender, that's still fine.

From: guest , 23 days, post #12

just an example - the last page the SO tells her former man (who did this change to himself) that he's gonna like guys now

this kind of mental alteration is kind of the thing I am talking about

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