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Sexism/misogyny in TG fiction?
From: guest (Passing Through) , 9 days, post #1
This came up in another thread — not relevant there, so I figured I’d start a dedicated thread.

Honestly, I think there’s a bit of truth to the accusation of *some* sexism in *some* to fiction. Think about the recurring theme of tough guy becomes meek, sex crazed, dim witted bimbo. Or that the new woman has to learn a “woman’s place” and become submissive to her typically male partner.

Sure, a lot of TG, particularly captions, is fetish material. And if we’re talking porn— sure. No one thinks pizza delivery boys (with TG pizza?) are being objectified, for example. But I do think there’s a dearth of fiction with strong MtF role models.

From: guest , 9 days, post #2
I do agree that there is indeed some sexism and Misogyny on the TG Community that sometimes ends up very, very creepy and disturbing. I mean...Just take a look at the poor attempt of a Body Swap Subreddit. Almost every thread there was awful. There wasn't really any story telling being discussed there and it al boiled down to what would you do if you had this body...See the problem?

On TG cliche that I really hate is the "Exploring your new body" crap. SPECIALLY when it's a body swap. Exploring your OWN body after you are transformed into a female is one thing but...Doing that to SOMENE ELSE'S body? Even a family member? That's dangerously close to rape...

This is the reason why I don't want to be part of the TG Community...

From: guest (wattpader) , 9 days, post #3
I do think bodyswaps are creepy. If I write TG in my story, there have to be other elements to it.
Not just the TF, for a decent story.

From: DB Cooper , 8 days, post #4
For a good non creepy bobdyswap, try Megam Schull's The Swap.

From: guest , 8 days, post #5
I tend to agree with #2... a lot of this is very much like rape. If it's kept as a fantasy, I suppose I can live with it. I'd rather someone FANTASISE about raping a body them have possessed then going out there and actually raping someone. I'm just different than that and it's more about just BEING female through and through that I like. But people are into what they are into and I can't control what they think.

From: guest (Nita) , 8 days, post #6
I think the posts after OP are a bit off to what being discussed in OP in that they focus on the sexual/fetish/arousal aspect. I think complaining about that is as pointless as complaining about sexism or misogyny or creepiness in porn.

I think what the OP want us to discuss is the social aspect of it, particularly in TG stories that are focusing more on societal & power dynamic between genders rather than porn-isque stories. Because unlike the stories which focus more on sexual aspect in which everyone who read it will treat it as nothing more than a sexual fetish fantasy, the non-sex focused TG stories are more likely to be taken seriously by readers & therefore the sexism, misogyny & traditional gender roles promoted in these stories will more likely to influence the readers' mind & impede our fight for gender equality.

There is a disturbing trend among TG writers to strip the MtF characters of their agency & promote the ideas of being a housewife or "stay in the kitchen". They promote the idea that financial dependence on man is sexy and that being submissive wife is desirable. This must not be encouraged if we are serious about female empowerment.


From: guest , 8 days, post #7
My problem with the community is that a majority of it is...Well...Porn-Like. And it's really, really hard for me to find liked-minded people to discuss this particular fantasy. That is a reason why I keep it to myself, I don't trust many of the people who are in the TG community and I've had pretty bad experiences in the past. That is why I hate the subreddit so much...I was hoping it could be a place I could share ideas, have some serious discussion etc. but nope, it was an awful place...

From: guest (Passing Theough) , 8 days, post #8
Thanks, Nita— yeah, that was pretty much my point. I guess I’m trans. For a variety of personal reasons, I present/live as a cis/hetero male. But if that magic wand or whatever existed that would make me female, I’d put my eBay bid in on it in a heartbeat. But I would want to be an empowered woman, not some simpering bimbo who is defined by her sexual attractiveness. A lot of TG fiction seems to implicitly or not so implicitly approve of rather sexist gender roles.

I do get what poster #2 is saying about swap/possession stories. In a way, they are another form of objectification— literally using a woman as a tool for their own fantasies. Now, I personally don’t dislike all swap stories: I remember a particularly moving story by AJ James (now sadly removed from the web by the author) in which the Great Shift puts a man in the body of a female vet who lost her legs. The former owner of the body helps the protagonist adjust to the challenges of her new body (and they become intimate, as is the way in tg fiction, but it didn’t feel exploitive). A far cry from the “I’m in my sexy neighbors body, time to masturbate!” stories

From: Weirdoid , 8 days, post #9
Oddly enough the sexism goes both ways.

Men become sexually crazed, Bi Boise, or stereotypic women.

But this is coupled with the idea that such a stereotype is better than being male.

And when women become men in these stories (assuming they are more than a tool to give a MtF sex and clothing) usually adjust instantly losing their self and becoming monsterous brutes, rapists, or as sex crazed as men.

Heck, the only people who seem relatively ok in TG stories are in the background.

From: cornerodaweb , 8 days, post #10
The broadbrushing here is kind of saddening to be quite honestly. Are there sexist stereotypes and tropes being utilized by most men who write this sort of thing? Yes, but to levy that accusation against men alone is ignorant at best and dishonest at worst.

Do sexist stereotypes exist and are they utilized in TG fiction? Yes. But that's the point of fiction, is it not? To use this as an escape and as an outlet for your own fantasies no matter what they are. I myself don't care for the bimbo stories, but I don't despise anyone who does, same with really anyone who puts whatever they fancy out for others to see.

Most people who are into the whole "omg what would you do in her body" are probably young males, new to this and using it simply as arousal material. Nothing to take seriously and granted I've been writing TG fiction since 9 or 10 and I had those sort of fantasies at times as well.

Since then I've matured in my tastes, and I could only assume if these young males (assuming obviously just what it looks like to me) will either find a new kink or mature as well and become the type of people who want to put more into a story than "OMG playing with my new body"

From: guest (Should Be Beverly) , 8 days, post #11
guest post #7

Agreed

From: guest (ObjectivelyPerverse) , 7 days, post #12
I will openly admit that my primary interest in the subject is sexual in nature, not to say I can't enjoy well written prose on the idea of becoming something or someone else. In this case the darker exploitation stuff like mimicry, possession and identity theft deals with controversial topics, but ones that I appreciate being explored. There is a certain carnal interest in exploring these topics from the safety of the fictional realm.

However, whether its fetishization or vanilla, there is a rather disappointing and somewhat sexist trend I see in a lot of throwaway plots for tv shows, movies, cartoons, and hentai. This would be the idea of loosing power by becoming female. I'm not talking about physical strength, but rather the character's control of any given situation and especially their own body. Being a woman is depicted as a downgrade whose only upside is looking good and feeling good. I'm talking about those stories where one of two friends becomes female and the female one suddenly becomes weirdly subservient.

Its really disappointing for me personally, my fantasy of becoming someone else or the ability shape shift comes from having the power or ability to experience new things, but rather than demonstrate the legitimate ups and downs of their new perspective, some choose to instead make the shift in question the issue. It becomes a real problem when the writers imply that gender and sexuality comes with the new sex, that a man turned woman would start acting girly and become uncontrollably attracted to the males around them, ignoring years of personality development, as if a slave to their hormones. Most times the difference between me enjoying a tg manga and hating it is just consent and initiative, and its not even that I find fictional stories of rape unpalatable, it just ruins the point of becoming someone new. Guy wants to see what is like to have sex as a woman, fine. Guy gets assaulted by friend after becoming a woman, whats the point. Or in a vanilla example, guy experiments with wearing new clothes, as opposed to feeling forced to begrudgingly wear a dress for no apparent reason. I supose my opposition to these scenarios is more about how cliche they are than their sexist implications, but I digress, its not a satisfying story either way.

From: guest (Riley Avery) , 7 days, post #13
It really depends on what you find sexy about becoming the opposite sex. The stories I used to write dealt more with the male characters becoming female which would empower them, or they learn to explore their new lives and become empowered through that. I never really had the male-turned-female lose power, and if they did it was because they didn't fully understand their situation.

I think it really depends on what flavor of TG fiction you're into, your fundamental beliefs on gender differences, and why you desire to become the opposite sex. I personally have always found being a women as more sexually empowering. Sure there's societal issues that women are facing, but I wasn't writing social commentary, I wrote fetish fiction.

Now two genres of TG fiction I never felt 100% comfortable writing is possession or forced fem genre. Both of those tropes involve somebody losing agency: possessions, especially permanent, pretty much kills off the original person (although I did write a few possession series); and forced fems deal with somebody losing control of their choices to become a bimbo or a slave (I never once touched this genre).

From: guest (Lorinell) , 6 days, post #14
Of course - it just needs to look what types of stories are most popular.
Man is changed into cocksucking whore - ans he/she likes it more then anything. End.



From: guest (Tights) , 6 days, post #15
I really don't wanna go on a rant here... but I'm freaking tired of seeing people talking about sexism, gender equality, feminism and all these other shit 24/7.

It's like everything must be seen through the "sacred lens of tolerance and diversity" (unless of course, it's an opinion that liberals disagree, in this case you don't need to be tolerant and can just yell "fascist!" – even though the person you are talking is not a fascist).

I mean, seriously! Every fucking place you go you see people talking things like this.

And, surprisingly, 99% of the time... is not really a real sexism thing. It's just pure bullshit.

Let's talk about the sexism in saudi arabia or in the majority of muslim countries, where women are treated worse than animals. Oh, wait. We can't! This would be islamophobia! We can only criticize the patriarcal western culture/society.

I mean for god sake, just a few days ago I was reading this news "Miss America drops swimsuit portion and won't judge on looks".. as if men were never judged by the looks, or by the money they have or whatever.

I feel like we are living in some dystopian diversity society.

And if my comments offend any transgender midge disabled muslim women of color... Frankly, my dear... I don't give a damn.

From: guest (Passing Through) , 6 days, post #16
Yeah, we’re all terribly oppressed by rampant diversity. Doggone uppity women and minorities wanting jobs and stuff (and maybe even not being harassed at said job)

We can shrug and say “it’s all fiction, who cares?” And honestly, for vanilla porn, nobody is expecting a complex plot or deep examination of social norms. So, I get that. And if bondage,etc is your kink, that’s cool (not mine, but consenting adults and all that)

What I’ve really noticed though, is what some of the previous posters have said about equating womanhood with lack of agency and an approving tone towards older gender roles. Becoming a woman is seen in these stories as a “downgrade”, as ObjectivelyPerverse pointed out. That sort of attitude towards women is annoying enough when you hear it espoused by 21st century straight males, but you’d think that folks keen on stories about crossing the gender divide would be less stereotypical in their ideas about gender roles. Judging by which stories are popular, no, not really.



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