From: guest (Passing Through)
, 9 days, post #1 |
This came up in another thread — not relevant there, so I figured
I’d start a dedicated thread.|
Honestly, I think there’s a bit of truth to the accusation of
*some* sexism in *some* to fiction. Think about the recurring theme
of tough guy becomes meek, sex crazed, dim witted bimbo. Or that
the new woman has to learn a “woman’s place” and become submissive
to her typically male partner.
Sure, a lot of TG, particularly captions, is fetish material. And
if we’re talking porn— sure. No one thinks pizza delivery boys
(with TG pizza?) are being objectified, for example. But I do think
there’s a dearth of fiction with strong MtF role models.
, 9 days, post #2 |
I do agree that there is indeed some sexism and Misogyny on the TG
Community that sometimes ends up very, very creepy and disturbing.
I mean...Just take a look at the poor attempt of a Body Swap
Subreddit. Almost every thread there was awful. There wasn't really
any story telling being discussed there and it al boiled down to
what would you do if you had this body...See the problem?|
On TG cliche that I really hate is the "Exploring your new body"
crap. SPECIALLY when it's a body swap. Exploring your OWN body
after you are transformed into a female is one thing but...Doing
that to SOMENE ELSE'S body? Even a family member? That's
dangerously close to rape...
This is the reason why I don't want to be part of the TG
From: guest (wattpader)
, 9 days, post #3 |
I do think bodyswaps are creepy. If I write TG in my story, there
have to be other elements to it.|
Not just the TF, for a decent story.
From: DB Cooper
, 8 days, post #4 |
For a good non creepy bobdyswap, try Megam Schull's The Swap.|
, 8 days, post #5 |
I tend to agree with #2... a lot of this is very much like rape. If
it's kept as a fantasy, I suppose I can live with it. I'd rather
someone FANTASISE about raping a body them have possessed then
going out there and actually raping someone. I'm just different
than that and it's more about just BEING female through and through
that I like. But people are into what they are into and I can't
control what they think.|
From: guest (Nita)
, 8 days, post #6 |
I think the posts after OP are a bit off to what being discussed in
OP in that they focus on the sexual/fetish/arousal aspect. I think
complaining about that is as pointless as complaining about sexism
or misogyny or creepiness in porn.|
I think what the OP want us to discuss is the social aspect of it,
particularly in TG stories that are focusing more on societal &
power dynamic between genders rather than porn-isque stories.
Because unlike the stories which focus more on sexual aspect in
which everyone who read it will treat it as nothing more than a
sexual fetish fantasy, the non-sex focused TG stories are more
likely to be taken seriously by readers & therefore the sexism,
misogyny & traditional gender roles promoted in these stories will
more likely to influence the readers' mind & impede our fight for
There is a disturbing trend among TG writers to strip the MtF
characters of their agency & promote the ideas of being a housewife
or "stay in the kitchen". They promote the idea that financial
dependence on man is sexy and that being submissive wife is
desirable. This must not be encouraged if we are serious about
, 8 days, post #7 |
My problem with the community is that a majority of it
is...Well...Porn-Like. And it's really, really hard for me to find
liked-minded people to discuss this particular fantasy. That is a
reason why I keep it to myself, I don't trust many of the people
who are in the TG community and I've had pretty bad experiences in
the past. That is why I hate the subreddit so much...I was hoping
it could be a place I could share ideas, have some serious
discussion etc. but nope, it was an awful place...|
From: guest (Passing Theough)
, 8 days, post #8 |
Thanks, Nita— yeah, that was pretty much my point. I guess I’m
trans. For a variety of personal reasons, I present/live as a
cis/hetero male. But if that magic wand or whatever existed that
would make me female, I’d put my eBay bid in on it in a heartbeat.
But I would want to be an empowered woman, not some simpering bimbo
who is defined by her sexual attractiveness. A lot of TG fiction
seems to implicitly or not so implicitly approve of rather sexist
I do get what poster #2 is saying about swap/possession stories. In
a way, they are another form of objectification— literally using a
woman as a tool for their own fantasies. Now, I personally don’t
dislike all swap stories: I remember a particularly moving story by
AJ James (now sadly removed from the web by the author) in which
the Great Shift puts a man in the body of a female vet who lost her
legs. The former owner of the body helps the protagonist adjust to
the challenges of her new body (and they become intimate, as is the
way in tg fiction, but it didn’t feel exploitive). A far cry from
the “I’m in my sexy neighbors body, time to masturbate!” stories
, 8 days, post #9 |
Oddly enough the sexism goes both ways.|
Men become sexually crazed, Bi Boise, or stereotypic women.
But this is coupled with the idea that such a stereotype is better
than being male.
And when women become men in these stories (assuming they are more
than a tool to give a MtF sex and clothing) usually adjust
instantly losing their self and becoming monsterous brutes,
rapists, or as sex crazed as men.
Heck, the only people who seem relatively ok in TG stories are in
, 8 days, post #10 |
The broadbrushing here is kind of saddening to be quite honestly.
Are there sexist stereotypes and tropes being utilized by most men
who write this sort of thing? Yes, but to levy that accusation
against men alone is ignorant at best and dishonest at worst.|
Do sexist stereotypes exist and are they utilized in TG fiction?
Yes. But that's the point of fiction, is it not? To use this as an
escape and as an outlet for your own fantasies no matter what they
are. I myself don't care for the bimbo stories, but I don't despise
anyone who does, same with really anyone who puts whatever they
fancy out for others to see.
Most people who are into the whole "omg what would you do in her
body" are probably young males, new to this and using it simply as
arousal material. Nothing to take seriously and granted I've been
writing TG fiction since 9 or 10 and I had those sort of fantasies
at times as well.
Since then I've matured in my tastes, and I could only assume if
these young males (assuming obviously just what it looks like to
me) will either find a new kink or mature as well and become the
type of people who want to put more into a story than "OMG playing
with my new body"
From: guest (Should Be Beverly)
, 8 days, post #11 |
guest post #7|
From: guest (ObjectivelyPerverse)
, 7 days, post #12 |
I will openly admit that my primary interest in the subject is
sexual in nature, not to say I can't enjoy well written prose on
the idea of becoming something or someone else. In this case the
darker exploitation stuff like mimicry, possession and identity
theft deals with controversial topics, but ones that I appreciate
being explored. There is a certain carnal interest in exploring
these topics from the safety of the fictional realm.|
However, whether its fetishization or vanilla, there is a rather
disappointing and somewhat sexist trend I see in a lot of throwaway
plots for tv shows, movies, cartoons, and hentai. This would be the
idea of loosing power by becoming female. I'm not talking about
physical strength, but rather the character's control of any given
situation and especially their own body. Being a woman is depicted
as a downgrade whose only upside is looking good and feeling good.
I'm talking about those stories where one of two friends becomes
female and the female one suddenly becomes weirdly subservient.
Its really disappointing for me personally, my fantasy of becoming
someone else or the ability shape shift comes from having the power
or ability to experience new things, but rather than demonstrate
the legitimate ups and downs of their new perspective, some choose
to instead make the shift in question the issue. It becomes a real
problem when the writers imply that gender and sexuality comes with
the new sex, that a man turned woman would start acting girly and
become uncontrollably attracted to the males around them, ignoring
years of personality development, as if a slave to their hormones.
Most times the difference between me enjoying a tg manga and hating
it is just consent and initiative, and its not even that I find
fictional stories of rape unpalatable, it just ruins the point of
becoming someone new. Guy wants to see what is like to have sex as
a woman, fine. Guy gets assaulted by friend after becoming a woman,
whats the point. Or in a vanilla example, guy experiments with
wearing new clothes, as opposed to feeling forced to begrudgingly
wear a dress for no apparent reason. I supose my opposition to
these scenarios is more about how cliche they are than their sexist
implications, but I digress, its not a satisfying story either way.
From: guest (Riley Avery)
, 7 days, post #13 |
It really depends on what you find sexy about becoming the opposite
sex. The stories I used to write dealt more with the male
characters becoming female which would empower them, or they learn
to explore their new lives and become empowered through that. I
never really had the male-turned-female lose power, and if they did
it was because they didn't fully understand their situation.|
I think it really depends on what flavor of TG fiction you're into,
your fundamental beliefs on gender differences, and why you desire
to become the opposite sex. I personally have always found being a
women as more sexually empowering. Sure there's societal issues
that women are facing, but I wasn't writing social commentary, I
wrote fetish fiction.
Now two genres of TG fiction I never felt 100% comfortable writing
is possession or forced fem genre. Both of those tropes involve
somebody losing agency: possessions, especially permanent, pretty
much kills off the original person (although I did write a few
possession series); and forced fems deal with somebody losing
control of their choices to become a bimbo or a slave (I never once
touched this genre).
From: guest (Lorinell)
, 6 days, post #14 |
Of course - it just needs to look what types of stories are most
Man is changed into cocksucking whore - ans he/she likes it more
then anything. End.
From: guest (Tights)
, 6 days, post #15 |
I really don't wanna go on a rant here... but I'm freaking tired of
seeing people talking about sexism, gender equality, feminism and
all these other shit 24/7.|
It's like everything must be seen through the "sacred lens of
tolerance and diversity" (unless of course, it's an opinion that
liberals disagree, in this case you don't need to be tolerant and
can just yell "fascist!" – even though the person you are talking
is not a fascist).
I mean, seriously! Every fucking place you go you see people
talking things like this.
And, surprisingly, 99% of the time... is not really a real sexism
thing. It's just pure bullshit.
Let's talk about the sexism in saudi arabia or in the majority of
muslim countries, where women are treated worse than animals. Oh,
wait. We can't! This would be islamophobia! We can only criticize
the patriarcal western culture/society.
I mean for god sake, just a few days ago I was reading this news
"Miss America drops swimsuit portion and won't judge on looks".. as
if men were never judged by the looks, or by the money they have or
I feel like we are living in some dystopian diversity society.
And if my comments offend any transgender midge disabled muslim
women of color... Frankly, my dear... I don't give a damn.
From: guest (Passing Through)
, 6 days, post #16 |
Yeah, we’re all terribly oppressed by rampant diversity. Doggone
uppity women and minorities wanting jobs and stuff (and maybe even
not being harassed at said job)|
We can shrug and say “it’s all fiction, who cares?” And honestly,
for vanilla porn, nobody is expecting a complex plot or deep
examination of social norms. So, I get that. And if bondage,etc is
your kink, that’s cool (not mine, but consenting adults and all
What I’ve really noticed though, is what some of the previous
posters have said about equating womanhood with lack of agency and
an approving tone towards older gender roles. Becoming a woman is
seen in these stories as a “downgrade”, as ObjectivelyPerverse
pointed out. That sort of attitude towards women is annoying enough
when you hear it espoused by 21st century straight males, but you’d
think that folks keen on stories about crossing the gender divide
would be less stereotypical in their ideas about gender roles.
Judging by which stories are popular, no, not really.
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