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PC and the Transmafia
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From: guest (Cathy) , 10 months, post #41
I guess, as I said above, the way I see it, one group is talking about themselves and another group is talking about others.

I can see why it is important to the group talking about themselves. If you are not part of that group, why is it SO important to you how OTHERS are described? Does it threaten you in some way that someone who feels they are one gender and appears to be of that gender wants to be referred to AS that gender? Why is it offensive to you to do so?

I am not one to throw this card around (I'm generally a conservative, actually) but this feels like some kind of "hate" / discrimination for a reason I can't comprehend. In what way does it hurt you to call a post-operative male-to-female transsexual a woman? Or, even, simpler, for her to call herself that. How does it affect you?

From: Air Gear , 10 months, post #42
Just a point about chromosomes, it's not as simple as XX and XY.

On top of androgen insensitivity syndrome (hence women at birth with female sexual anatomy but XY chromosomes), there's chimerism and mosaicism (mixed XX and XY cells in the one body) and those are just the tip of the iceberg.

So, it's not really as good a determination of separating people into male and female as a lot of people might think.

From: guest (Bud) , 10 months, post #43
At the end of the day, you're not going to die over this. Your brain and heart aren't going to stop working "because you're offended".

From: guest (Kara) , 10 months, post #44
Cathy, you bring up some excellent points but two of them stood out to me.
First, you referred to speaking to post-op transgender as women. I have no problem with this. However, some people might be offended as it assumes that pre-op transgender females are NOT women..not yet.
While gender and sex are no longer synonymous, many still define "woman" by biological sex. Therefore, while a transgender female may, in fact, be female, not everyone will consider them women without SRS. It's an important distinction for many.



From: guest (Kara) , 10 months, post #45
Second, you specifically called out a grandfather's appearance "as a woman" as being an important factor. Not every TG female can "pass" and may resemble a cismale in all but attire. If we define womanhood by the femininity of a person's appearance, we run the risk of alienating probably over half of the transfemale population.

From: guest (Kara) , 10 months, post #46
"Transgender" not "grandfather".
SpellCheck is weird.



From: MissMako , 10 months, post #47
Yep... us Transmafia Peeps are gonna take over the world and force people to live the way we want! Hahahahahaha! OMG we are one of the most marginalized groups on the planet. This cry out of “help I’m being oppressed by the Transmafia” feels like made up propaganda from Fox News.

There does seems to be a fair amount of judgement and hate from some people (or maybe just one person who uses lots of guest names) who clearly have it out for Trans People on some of these forum threads that I’ve read over the years. In the “real world” no one cares about your arguments about DNA and bone structure or born this and can’t be that. I’ve been living as a woman long enough in the “real world” to have human beings just treat and see me as “woman” 24/7.

Calling someone “Cis” which I have done hundreds of times in the “real world” has never resulted in anyone being offended. In fact it has always sparked curisoity and an open dialogue which has been almost always positive.

I’ve found the people who often judge and just have to put Trans People down tend to be projecting.

- Miss Mako -

From: guest (Fed Up) , 10 months, post #48
"Calling someone “Cis” which I have done hundreds of times in the “real world” has never resulted in anyone being offended."

In your "real world", your circle, etc.

If among your circle of friends, you have decided to to use the term, that is your prerogative.

But to label it on to anyone else, without their agreement, is a form of bigotry.

From: guest (Fed Up) , 10 months, post #49
"Cisman" and "ciswoman" are not meant to be offensive terms; they're merely a way to distinguish between men who are trans and men who are not and women who are trans and women who are not."

...............

Then why not say Woman and trans-woman, man and trans-man? Does that not differentiate?

From: guest (Fed Up) , 10 months, post #50
"Ciswoman is not inherently an insult, you were just getting upset over nothing"

........

Then trans-woman is not an insult. So from now on the use of woman and trans-woman is proper, and not an insult.

From: guest (Seriously) , 10 months, post #51
Seriously, 'Miss-Mako'

Why do you have to call it judgement and hate? The fact that people are defending what they see as common sense and the rampage of insanity is hate?

That's great that you have people who treat you as a woman. But trying to change language to fit your invented reality is insanity.

In the "real world" your redefined subjects and fantasy can only go so far as the number of people around you who are willing to cater to your delusion.

From: guest , 10 months, post #52
suddenly, I am thinking about how I talk to people in general- a group of women is approached as "...hay guys..."

a group of men that are behaving badly- "...ladies..."

and the rest are- "mamma," and "sir" depending on how they are dressed

at my wife's work there was a man that is no longer a man- when she was still a he I had no clue about his gender identity (neither did anyone else) because he made no issue of it, but then he took three months off and returned as a woman, no one had a clue. I was working there at the time and introduced myself to her, seriously I had no idea who she was.

she thanked me later, and my wife said that I had made her cry because I came off as very supportive. I had no clue who she was, I was just being polite by introducing myself to someone I did not know. I still can't see him in her face, there was a total transformation

to this day I call her by her female name, and she is a she. there is nothing else to that.

you all need to settle down, call people what they appear to want to be called or just call them by their name- confused by that then call them nothing- make your approach without gender references and chill

if your world revolves around people calling you the right "word" then maybe you should wear a shirt that says- "refer to me as...." so that people have a clue

seriously, I get that gender is a whole issue with some, but some of us don't care about that, we just see who you are and go with it

now if you all want to lawyer speak my post go ahead but know this- I have no malice, no hatred, and no concern for your opinion about this. I think we should treat everyone the same- with respect, and that you with the gender issues need to get a bit thicker skin




From: guest , 10 months, post #53
According to your definition of "male" or "female" and "man" or "woman". Apparently the definition is changing. Sorry that you don't like it.

according to your new concept. I like this game. keep going.


If you are not part of that group, why is it SO important to you how OTHERS are described?
exactly... we wanna be called normal man and woman. why is so important call us cis? I bet you are threatened!


OMG we are one of the most marginalized groups on the planet.
false. I can be arrested if I call someone as a dirty faggot, who gave me disgust with their gay stuff in public. but, I've never heard of someone being arrested by calling someone dumb and dirty cis, who disgust me with their straight stuff , however, I've been hearing the latter a lot... and people feel they can do that, because is a compensation. every minority does that, isn't only you... and the set of every minority is, well, the majority. so we have a lot of groups fighting for stuff, usually privileges, with each other, projecting an illusionary evil majority, who are their sworn enemy.
you wanna call us by names we dont like? well... we can do the same. will it be nice? dont. so why dont respect each other? if you dont wanna be called by names you dont like, surprise, me neither. can our respect be mutual, or its just me who have to respect you?




From: guest , 10 months, post #54
I don't know where you live, guest #53. Presumably it's not the United States, because hate speech is not illegal in the US; but I know there are countries where hate speech is illegal. Although I am a transwoman, and potentially the target of hate speech, I am not in favor of making hate speech illegal. I've also never heard any trans people say anything remotely close to "dumb and dirty cis, who disgust me with their straight stuff"; and indeed, I've almost never heard trans people use "cis" in a negative way. That said, the way most nondiscrimination and hate speech laws are written, any law that would protect transgender people should also protect non-transgender people as well. What you describe is, after all, hate speech based on a person's gender identity. Laws that prohibit discrimination and hate speech based on gender identity protect trans and non-trans people alike; it's just that there aren't many non-trans people who face discrimination and hate speech based on their gender identity, so the laws don't typically need to be enforced in that direction.

Trans people are marginalized in ways that go far beyond being criticized for using hate speech, however. Trans people are routinely fired, not hired, denied housing, denied education, denied medical care, disowned from their families, disavowed by their friends, divorced by their spouses, denied access to their children, excommunicated from their churches, chased out of restrooms and locker rooms, demonized by preachers and politicians, harassed on the street, raped, beaten, and murdered for our gender identity. Such discrimination is not illegal in much of the United States, and in an increasing number of American states, it's being made implicitly legal under the guise of "religious freedom" laws. The current administration in the US has also taken several aggressive steps to roll back the rights and legal protections of transgender people. Meanwhile, the rate of poverty, unemployment, and homelessness for transgender people is shockingly high.

I've never, on the other hand, heard of someone being fired or disowned or murdered or raped for not being trans. Have non-trans people been criticized for saying hurtful things about trans people? Sure. But that's not the same as being criticized, much less murdered, for not being trans.

So... yes. It's fair to say that transgender people are among the most marginalized groups on the planet. Being unable to spout hate speech isn't even a blip on the radar of what trans people face.

www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_full.pdf

From: guest , 10 months, post #55
"So... yes. It's fair to say that transgender people are among the most marginalized groups on the planet."
politely, I disagree. first of all, transgenderism is something that flourished in western society. and, let's say.. when you live with less than two dolars a day, you cant have the luxury to think about how you feel... you just have to work to put food (or something that looks like it) on your mouth (sometimes you just work to live... like those fellas living under ak-47's eyes, while they mine our precious metals and minerals). about 10% of worlds population live in this condition.
how many black people are living right now? about 1.3 billion, or 20% of all human beings breathing right now.
lets suppose that we have a half intersection between those groups, so, now we have 25% of all human beings in a group that "the majority rejects somehow".
if we keep adding every minority to this number, somehow, it will achieve something way bigger than 50%. if we just add chinese, arab and indians, we reach that easily. weird of all, this mind game can lead to over 90% of the world being composed of minorities, which leads to a brilliant conclusion that 10% of the world is our evil majority . which, of course, sounds comical.
so, what we have, is a bunch of assholes in their small groups bashing people who are not in their groups. if you divide the world in those who are inside your group and those who are not, thats when you see a majority, which, as I showed, doesnt exists if you dont have a black-and-white way of thinking.

but, wanna see a kind of prejudice towards cis/straight? take a look back in this thread... post #10.

and, yeah, I dont live in USA. here, where I live, minorities conquered the right to bash their supposed haters. as an example, someone with black skin can walk with a t-shirt saying "100% black" and everyone will say that person has pride and respect for his/her origins, but if some blue eyed blond uses a t-shirt with "100% white", all hell breaks loose. my bad assuming that you lived like that.

Im an agnostic-nihilist. even atheists hate me. there are places that if I say this, I can be murdered. in jail I had to lie, for example... so, yeah, I get it. but you wont see me creating names, labeling others and saying that Im part of a pitiful minority.

From: guest (Toxic Masculinity) , 10 months, post #56
the new trend ‘I’m an oppressed straight white male who gets butt hurt when I hate and then am called out for the racists or sexist or homophobic or transphobic person I am’. Waaaaaaaa

From: EthanGrace , 10 months, post #57
the new trend 'I'm a SJW who condescendingly dismisses the feelings and arguments of anyone who isn't part of my notion of minority and then am confused when Trump becomes President'. Waaaaaaa

I'm pretty neutral in this topic, as I've said already, refer to people how they want, understand the context and be respectful of your audience.

But there is no need for snarky condescension.

Everyone here is engaging in their opinions, some might be wrong, but that is why you have a thread/debate to hopefully change minds or at least help look at the issue differently and hear from others perspective.

Ironically, for someone calling themselves 'Toxic Masculinity' it represents a toxic society. You shouldn't be dismissing opinions simply because of where they are coming from. SWM or not.

Insulting and mocking someone for their opinion on the basis that they are born into a majority is no different than if they were born into a minority.

It creates resentment, represses unexpressed feelings and creates ignorance from an inability to engage in these topics by people like you. All which easily lead to hate.

And then you raise your arms up and wonder how someone like Trump, who lets these people engage, wins elections. And we all lose.

From: guest (Fed Up) , 10 months, post #58
“And then you raise your arms up and wonder how someone like Trump, who lets these people engage, wins elections. And we all lose.”
..................

Everyone on this site, and from the U.S., did not vote for Trump?

You are making my point on Transmafia.

From: guest (Cathy) , 10 months, post #59
> exactly... we wanna be called normal man and woman. why is so important call us cis?
> I bet you are threatened!

I never said that I insist on calling you cis. (No idea where you got THAT from). I just said that man and woman includes trans people. It's the WANTING to add "trans" to that as a requirement and the OBJECTION (in other words, YOUR offence) to the use of "cis" to mean "people born that way" that you had gotten criticized for (and not by me... go back and read).

It's your apparent idea that man and woman doesn't inherently include trans and cis people both that you got "attacked" for and your apparent NEED to point that out to someone who had used the word "cis" to specific that the person was biologically that way -- because it was important to their point -- not because they needed to single that person out and exclude them for "man" or "woman".

Frankly, as was said, above, I don't care what you think... everything I have says what I am and everyone perceives me as what I am. If that threatens you somehow and you feel a need to "lash out" have at it. Looking back at the original post in context, it sure seems you were the instigator of this whole thing, criticizing the other person for using the "cis" words... by saying "fixed that".

Enjoy life... I'm done with this conversation -- my lack of a reply in the future is not "giving up"... just an expression of the futility of expecting you to ever understand. Someday maybe you'll grow up and not need to push your opinions on others in "retaliation" of the feeling that others are doing that to you -- without even knowing if the person you're doing it to was one of them. Enjoy being bitter.

From: guest (jury) , 10 months, post #60
seriously? what's so hard to understand about it? If people already told you they don't like to be called by certain name or label & you still insist of doing that, you are an ASSHOLE. Case closed.

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