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From: guest (Cathy)
, 78 months, post #41 |
I guess, as I said above, the way I see it, one group is talking
about themselves and another group is talking about others.
I can see why it is important to the group talking about
themselves. If you are not part of that group, why is it SO
important to you how OTHERS are described? Does it threaten you in
some way that someone who feels they are one gender and appears to
be of that gender wants to be referred to AS that gender? Why is it
offensive to you to do so?
I am not one to throw this card around (I'm generally a
conservative, actually) but this feels like some kind of "hate" /
discrimination for a reason I can't comprehend. In what way does it
hurt you to call a post-operative male-to-female transsexual a
woman? Or, even, simpler, for her to call herself that. How does it
affect you?
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From: Air Gear
, 78 months, post #42 |
Just a point about chromosomes, it's not as simple as XX and XY.
On top of androgen insensitivity syndrome (hence women at birth
with female sexual anatomy but XY chromosomes), there's chimerism
and mosaicism (mixed XX and XY cells in the one body) and those are
just the tip of the iceberg.
So, it's not really as good a determination of separating people
into male and female as a lot of people might think.
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From: guest (Bud)
, 78 months, post #43 |
At the end of the day, you're not going to die over this. Your
brain and heart aren't going to stop working "because you're
offended".
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From: guest (Kara)
, 78 months, post #44 |
Cathy, you bring up some excellent points but two of them stood out
to me.
First, you referred to speaking to post-op transgender as women. I
have no problem with this. However, some people might be offended
as it assumes that pre-op transgender females are NOT women..not
yet.
While gender and sex are no longer synonymous, many still define
"woman" by biological sex. Therefore, while a transgender female
may, in fact, be female, not everyone will consider them women
without SRS. It's an important distinction for many.
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From: guest (Kara)
, 78 months, post #45 |
Second, you specifically called out a grandfather's appearance "as
a woman" as being an important factor. Not every TG female can
"pass" and may resemble a cismale in all but attire. If we define
womanhood by the femininity of a person's appearance, we run the
risk of alienating probably over half of the transfemale
population.
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From: guest (Kara)
, 78 months, post #46 |
"Transgender" not "grandfather".
SpellCheck is weird.
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From: MissMako
, 78 months, post #47 |
Yep... us Transmafia Peeps are gonna take over the world and force
people to live the way we want! Hahahahahaha! OMG we are one of the
most marginalized groups on the planet. This cry out of “help I’m
being oppressed by the Transmafia” feels like made up propaganda
from Fox News.
There does seems to be a fair amount of judgement and hate from
some people (or maybe just one person who uses lots of guest names)
who clearly have it out for Trans People on some of these forum
threads that I’ve read over the years. In the “real world” no one
cares about your arguments about DNA and bone structure or born
this and can’t be that. I’ve been living as a woman long enough in
the “real world” to have human beings just treat and see me as
“woman” 24/7.
Calling someone “Cis” which I have done hundreds of times in the
“real world” has never resulted in anyone being offended. In fact
it has always sparked curisoity and an open dialogue which has been
almost always positive.
I’ve found the people who often judge and just have to put Trans
People down tend to be projecting.
- Miss Mako -
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From: guest (Fed Up)
, 78 months, post #48 |
"Calling someone “Cis” which I have done hundreds of times in the
“real world” has never resulted in anyone being offended."
In your "real world", your circle, etc.
If among your circle of friends, you have decided to to use the
term, that is your prerogative.
But to label it on to anyone else, without their agreement, is a
form of bigotry.
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From: guest (Fed Up)
, 78 months, post #49 |
"Cisman" and "ciswoman" are not meant to be offensive terms;
they're merely a way to distinguish between men who are trans and
men who are not and women who are trans and women who are not."
...............
Then why not say Woman and trans-woman, man and trans-man? Does
that not differentiate?
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From: guest (Fed Up)
, 78 months, post #50 |
"Ciswoman is not inherently an insult, you were just getting upset
over nothing"
........
Then trans-woman is not an insult. So from now on the use of woman
and trans-woman is proper, and not an insult.
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From: guest (Seriously)
, 78 months, post #51 |
Seriously, 'Miss-Mako'
Why do you have to call it judgement and hate? The fact that people
are defending what they see as common sense and the rampage of
insanity is hate?
That's great that you have people who treat you as a woman. But
trying to change language to fit your invented reality is insanity.
In the "real world" your redefined subjects and fantasy can only go
so far as the number of people around you who are willing to cater
to your delusion.
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From: guest
, 78 months, post #52 |
suddenly, I am thinking about how I talk to people in general- a
group of women is approached as "...hay guys..."
a group of men that are behaving badly- "...ladies..."
and the rest are- "mamma," and "sir" depending on how they are
dressed
at my wife's work there was a man that is no longer a man- when she
was still a he I had no clue about his gender identity (neither did
anyone else) because he made no issue of it, but then he took three
months off and returned as a woman, no one had a clue. I was
working there at the time and introduced myself to her, seriously I
had no idea who she was.
she thanked me later, and my wife said that I had made her cry
because I came off as very supportive. I had no clue who she was, I
was just being polite by introducing myself to someone I did not
know. I still can't see him in her face, there was a total
transformation
to this day I call her by her female name, and she is a she. there
is nothing else to that.
you all need to settle down, call people what they appear to want
to be called or just call them by their name- confused by that then
call them nothing- make your approach without gender references and
chill
if your world revolves around people calling you the right "word"
then maybe you should wear a shirt that says- "refer to me as...."
so that people have a clue
seriously, I get that gender is a whole issue with some, but some
of us don't care about that, we just see who you are and go with it
now if you all want to lawyer speak my post go ahead but know this-
I have no malice, no hatred, and no concern for your opinion about
this. I think we should treat everyone the same- with respect, and
that you with the gender issues need to get a bit thicker skin
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From: guest
, 78 months, post #53 |
According to your definition of "male" or "female" and "man" or
"woman". Apparently the definition is changing. Sorry that you
don't like it.
according to your
new concept. I like this game. keep going.
If you are not part of that group, why is it SO important to you
how OTHERS are described?
exactly... we wanna be called normal man and woman. why is so
important call us cis? I bet you are threatened!
OMG we are one of the most marginalized groups on the planet.
false. I can be arrested if I call someone as a dirty faggot, who gave me disgust with their gay stuff
in public. but, I've never heard of someone being arrested by
calling someone dumb and dirty cis, who disgust me with their straight stuff
, however, I've been hearing the latter a lot... and people feel
they can do that, because is a compensation. every minority does
that, isn't only you... and the set of every minority is, well, the
majority. so we have a lot of groups fighting for stuff, usually
privileges, with each other, projecting an illusionary evil
majority, who are their sworn enemy.
you wanna call us by names we dont like? well... we can do the
same. will it be nice? dont. so why dont respect each other? if you
dont wanna be called by names you dont like, surprise, me neither.
can our respect be mutual, or its just me who have to respect you?
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From: guest
, 78 months, post #54 |
I don't know where you live, guest #53. Presumably it's not the
United States, because hate speech is not illegal in the US; but I
know there are countries where hate speech is illegal. Although I
am a transwoman, and potentially the target of hate speech, I am
not in favor of making hate speech illegal. I've also never heard
any trans people say anything remotely close to "dumb and dirty
cis, who disgust me with their straight stuff"; and indeed, I've
almost never heard trans people use "cis" in a negative way. That
said, the way most nondiscrimination and hate speech laws are
written, any law that would protect transgender people should also
protect non-transgender people as well. What you describe is, after
all, hate speech based on a person's gender identity. Laws that
prohibit discrimination and hate speech based on gender identity
protect trans and non-trans people alike; it's just that there
aren't many non-trans people who face discrimination and hate
speech based on their gender identity, so the laws don't typically
need to be enforced in that direction.
Trans people are marginalized in ways that go far beyond being
criticized for using hate speech, however. Trans people are
routinely fired, not hired, denied housing, denied education,
denied medical care, disowned from their families, disavowed by
their friends, divorced by their spouses, denied access to their
children, excommunicated from their churches, chased out of
restrooms and locker rooms, demonized by preachers and politicians,
harassed on the street, raped, beaten, and murdered for our gender
identity. Such discrimination is not illegal in much of the United
States, and in an increasing number of American states, it's being
made implicitly legal under the guise of "religious freedom" laws.
The current administration in the US has also taken several
aggressive steps to roll back the rights and legal protections of
transgender people. Meanwhile, the rate of poverty, unemployment,
and homelessness for transgender people is shockingly high.
I've never, on the other hand, heard of someone being fired or
disowned or murdered or raped for not being trans. Have non-trans
people been criticized for saying hurtful things about trans
people? Sure. But that's not the same as being criticized, much
less murdered, for not being trans.
So... yes. It's fair to say that transgender people are among the
most marginalized groups on the planet. Being unable to spout hate
speech isn't even a blip on the radar of what trans people face.
www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_full.pdf
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From: guest
, 78 months, post #55 |
"So... yes. It's fair to say that transgender people are among the
most marginalized groups on the planet."
politely, I disagree. first of all, transgenderism is something
that flourished in western society. and, let's say.. when you live
with less than two dolars a day, you cant have the luxury to think
about how you feel... you just have to work to put food (or
something that looks like it) on your mouth (sometimes you just
work to live... like those fellas living under ak-47's eyes, while
they mine our precious metals and minerals). about 10% of worlds
population live in this condition.
how many black people are living right now? about 1.3 billion, or
20% of all human beings breathing right now.
lets suppose that we have a half intersection between those groups,
so, now we have 25% of all human beings in a group that "the
majority rejects somehow".
if we keep adding every minority to this number, somehow, it will
achieve something way bigger than 50%. if we just add chinese, arab
and indians, we reach that easily. weird of all, this mind game can
lead to over 90% of the world being composed of minorities, which
leads to a brilliant conclusion that 10%
of the world is our evil majority
. which, of course, sounds comical.
so, what we have, is a bunch of assholes in their small groups
bashing people who are not in their groups. if you divide the world
in those who are inside your group and those who are not, thats
when you see a majority, which, as I showed, doesnt exists if you
dont have a black-and-white way of thinking.
but, wanna see a kind of prejudice towards cis/straight? take a
look back in this thread... post #10.
and, yeah, I dont live in USA. here, where I live, minorities
conquered the right to bash their supposed haters. as an example,
someone with black skin can walk with a t-shirt saying "100% black"
and everyone will say that person has pride and respect for his/her
origins, but if some blue eyed blond uses a t-shirt with "100%
white", all hell breaks loose. my bad assuming that you lived like
that.
Im an agnostic-nihilist. even atheists hate me. there are places
that if I say this, I can be murdered. in jail I had to lie, for
example... so, yeah, I get it. but you wont see me creating names,
labeling others and saying that Im part of a pitiful minority.
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From: guest (Toxic Masculinity)
, 78 months, post #56 |
the new trend ‘I’m an oppressed straight white male who gets butt
hurt when I hate and then am called out for the racists or sexist
or homophobic or transphobic person I am’. Waaaaaaaa
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From: EthanGrace
, 78 months, post #57 |
the new trend 'I'm a SJW who condescendingly dismisses the feelings
and arguments of anyone who isn't part of my notion of minority and
then am confused when Trump becomes President'. Waaaaaaa
I'm pretty neutral in this topic, as I've said already, refer to
people how they want, understand the context and be respectful of
your audience.
But there is no need for snarky condescension.
Everyone here is engaging in their opinions, some might be wrong,
but that is why you have a thread/debate to hopefully change minds
or at least help look at the issue differently and hear from others
perspective.
Ironically, for someone calling themselves 'Toxic Masculinity' it
represents a toxic society. You shouldn't be dismissing opinions
simply because of where they are coming from. SWM or not.
Insulting and mocking someone for their opinion on the basis that
they are born into a majority is no different than if they were
born into a minority.
It creates resentment, represses unexpressed feelings and creates
ignorance from an inability to engage in these topics by people
like you. All which easily lead to hate.
And then you raise your arms up and wonder how someone like Trump,
who lets these people engage, wins elections. And we all lose.
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From: guest (Fed Up)
, 78 months, post #58 |
“And then you raise your arms up and wonder how someone like Trump,
who lets these people engage, wins elections. And we all lose.”
..................
Everyone on this site, and from the U.S., did not vote for Trump?
You are making my point on Transmafia.
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From: guest (Cathy)
, 78 months, post #59 |
> exactly... we wanna be called normal man and woman. why is so
important call us cis?
> I bet you are threatened!
I never said that I insist on calling you cis. (No idea where you
got THAT from). I just said that man and woman includes trans
people. It's the WANTING to add "trans" to that as a requirement
and the OBJECTION (in other words, YOUR offence) to the use of
"cis" to mean "people born that way" that you had gotten criticized
for (and not by me... go back and read).
It's your apparent idea that man and woman doesn't inherently
include trans and cis people both that you got "attacked" for and
your apparent NEED to point that out to someone who had used the
word "cis" to specific that the person was biologically that way --
because it was important to their point -- not because they needed
to single that person out and exclude them for "man" or "woman".
Frankly, as was said, above, I don't care what you think...
everything I have says what I am and everyone perceives me as what
I am. If that threatens you somehow and you feel a need to "lash
out" have at it. Looking back at the original post in context, it
sure seems you were the instigator of this whole thing, criticizing
the other person for using the "cis" words... by saying "fixed
that".
Enjoy life... I'm done with this conversation -- my lack of a reply
in the future is not "giving up"... just an expression of the
futility of expecting you to ever understand. Someday maybe you'll
grow up and not need to push your opinions on others in
"retaliation" of the feeling that others are doing that to you --
without even knowing if the person you're doing it to was one of
them. Enjoy being bitter.
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From: guest (jury)
, 78 months, post #60 |
seriously? what's so hard to understand about it? If people already
told you they don't like to be called by certain name or label &
you still insist of doing that, you are an ASSHOLE. Case closed.
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