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From: guest (Jill)
, 68 months, post #21 |
actually if I became a woman I'd be the same miserable self that I
am just now in a woman's body. It's the thought of being someone
else that I truly enjoy, so being someone else and then going back
to my body would have the same reaction as someone being stuck in
my body, we'd both hate it!. Speaking of victims I'm a victim
everyday I didn't get to choose who my parents were, how much money
they had, how I was brought up etc, so swapping them and leaving
them in my body would be the same thing that I faced all my life,
so welcome to the club! So to answer your question we all hate are
miserable lives so trying to be positive and wishing for something
better is all we have left.
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From: Golvanious
, 68 months, post #22 |
It could just come down to kinks, that's probably why involuntary
stuck endings are popular.
From my perspective, I think that can invite fun speculation as to
where the character could go from there once the story's over. That
is assuming the story ties up any outstanding narrative arcs so the
reader's plate is free enough to ponder those kinda questions.
But that's just my opinion. Again, probably largely down to kinks
or other personal things I'm not gonna tear into, but I do like the
speculation part of it, personally.
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From: guest (Mason9418)
, 68 months, post #23 |
Tastes on this topic run the whole gamut. Some like switching back,
some don't. I don't. If I know that the characters will switch
back, I won't re-watch the movie for a long time, or I might pass
it up totally. I most prefer the sort of movie where the
person/persons are closed minded and hate the change at first, but
when they finally get the chance to change back, they don't want to
do it. They have learned and grown. The next best is where one
really wants to change back, but can't. But they show courage and
flexibility and face a new life without buckling under their grief
at what they have lost (which usually isn't much anyway).
What it boils down to is that some people don't care for shows
where major experiences leave the character unchanged/unimproved on
the inside. The movie then is basically about nothing. Also, being
unwilling to accept a change strikes a chord with watchers because
the vast majority of them would not like to change themselves or
their lives radically. Yet the plot acknowledges the worth of both
sexes. This makes the character a representative of Everyman.
Someone who wants to change is much harder to identify with, and
the value of one of the sexes seems to be denigrated in the mind of
the character. I mean, the latter character has experienced the
life of one of the sexes for years and still doesn't like it. This
is not a very attractive personality. The former character has
experienced the other sex's life for only a few weeks, perhaps, but
soon comes to appreciate its worth and value.
I'm reminded of the comic heroine Mantra. A wizard put his best
knight's soul into the body of a witch so he could gain her powers
in service to the wizard. The knight was furious to change back,
but early attempts failed. The day came when the knight's powers
had grown so great he/she could have abandoned the body for another
(along with the powers) but no longer wanted to. She had adjusted
to a whole new life because it was a rich and useful one. The
movies that come to mind that are come closest to this these are
"Just Follow Law" and "Assignment" for the second type, and "Sam"
and "Cleo/Leo" for the first type.
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From: guest (clancy688)
, 68 months, post #24 |
This has been thoroughly discussed here:
https://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/forum/50010/unwritten-tg-story-rule-never-change-back-transformed-why
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From: guest (Mason9418)
, 68 months, post #25 |
I don't know if this is directed just to me, which would seem
rather rude, since I am a newbie poster on this site. Or if it is
directed to the thread in general? What's the problem? Are we using
too much byte space to suit some people? And the link you give is
for a totally different site. What is this? Should there be only
one site for any one idea? How sad if, say, doctors were forced to
restrict themselves that way. Or, if Assyrian oncology is given in
one book, does that mean that no more books on Assyrian oncology
are needed, ever? It seems to me that the first book on a subject
may not be best and should not be the last on a subject. I would
instead encourage people to address any topic they like, whenever
they feel like addressing it.
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From: Reibushido
, 68 months, post #26 |
I doubt it was directed to route this thread to that site, or to
you personally (Mason9418), as every single post on that thread is
nearly 4 years old. I believe they were simply offering another bit
of insight onto the topic of this thread as they had discussed it
under a similar vein there. My two cents at least.
On the thread itself, I also favor towards the trope of switching,
no switch backs. I find that the idea of the story having that
'return to status quo' mentality (excluding the experiences in some
cases) is just not interesting. Many stories I come across dealing
with a change like that with an escape clause feel like dipping
your foot into the pool, then running back inside and showering in
order to forget you ever touched it. It feels that they are not
only afraid of the change, but in some cases, gain nothing from it,
then go back to normal like nothing happened.
While there are people who would feel that way, I just don't find
it good for a story. If the person changed physically, then changed
themselves mentally to adapt and overcome their situation in order
to change back, effectively gaining something from the whole
ordeal, that I can follow.
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From: Holly Dunn
, 68 months, post #27 |
Read Joseph Campbell and his theory on the myth: The person's old
life dies and his/her's new life begins in the story. They take a
journey and become someone else along the way. Luke Skywlker would
have been content tending the farm with his aunt and uncle... but
the Storm Troopers slaughtered everyone... and his journey to his
new life began. He was not the same person at the end of the movie
as he was at the beginning. Good thing he didn't switch back near
the end.
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From: Air Gear
, 68 months, post #28 |
I bought the whole series of Mantra off ebay in the last few
months. The much bigger change by far with the main character than
anything to do with physical bodies is learning to not be a
colossal jerk. All through his 1500 years or so of life, he's
basically been hijacking other people's bodies each time he dies,
ruining their lives and then getting them killed in short order.
Initially, he's no different for some time in his first female body
but for the first time in his life, actually (eventually) comes to
learn that the family he's ended up with is one he can't discard
and he actually has to look after them. Basically, that his new
life has responsibilities.
Handy website on it all complete with lots of images from the
comics here:
http://www.mantraverse.com
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From: guest (Zam Zam)
, 68 months, post #29 |
Holly Dunn,
That is not the same thing. If it is made clear in the beginning of
the story that there is no way to change back to his original
gender, then the protagonist' "quest" in the story is to adapt to
his new condition, his "victory" would be his successful
adaptation. He "wins" the quest because that is the challenge that
is presented to him by the story structure. That he is involuntary
stuck is not relevant because it made clear in the beginning that
changing back is impossible & thus it is not the "quest" of the
story.
However, too many times we read TG stories where the "quest"
presented is to change back. The option to change back is
consistently dangled in front of the protagonist like a carrot. In
the ending we have the protagonist failed in the quest by being
stuck forever. That is just like having the protagonist fails his
quest for no reason at all. The writer could have the protagonist
wins by a) changing back, or b) getting the option to change back
but decides that he would rather stay in his current form. But for
whatever reason, the writer prefers the protagonist to fail.
I am not saying that all stories must have a protagonist that
"wins" at the end. However, there is a reason that majority of the
great stories ever told either have the protagonist "wins" at the
end or if the protagonist fails, then it is to drive a particular
point that the writer wants to convey to the audience through the
protagonist's defeat.
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From: guest (clancy688)
, 68 months, post #30 |
> I doubt it was directed to route this thread to that site, or
to you personally (Mason9418), as every single post on that thread
is nearly 4 years old.
Yeah, this.
The thread I posted gives an insight into the minds of tf authors.
It's been started by me years ago since I had basically the same
question:
"If tg stories are often wish fulfillment, why are so many changes
forced, why do the changed characters want to change back and why
do they almost never succeed?"
After all, if it really is wish fulfillment, it would be far more
logical for the authors to simply write a story where someone who
desires to become a woman becomes a woman and... is happy.
The answer I got in this thread kinda surprised me but is kinda
logical:
Many of these authors grew up in an environment which makes them
feel guilty about their deepest desire (= change gender). They want
to be women, but at the same time they feel guilty about it.
But if they create a story where someone who's never had this
desire gets changed against his will and has to stay as a woman
(because there's no way to change back) - well, then there's no
guilty feeling about it. After all, the main char had no choice.
To quote someone from said thread:
> ""Guilt" implies one's conscience is bothered by the idea of
becoming female, but for a good many of us, such feelings are
humiliating because of the social expectations placed on males.
When I was growing up, I'd see "sissy" characters on television
(usually the ones that Charles Nelson Reilly played) and noticed
that such characters were invariably sniveling cowards. For a long
time, I interpreted any effeminacy on my part as a sign of a
similar weakness, and became paranoid, even to the point of
monitoring my hand gestures.
But if a male-to-female transgender person who's ashamed about it
were to be forced into becoming female, they could maintain the
fiction of being just a normal guy while indulging their secret
desires at the same time. "Hey folks, I'm still a dude! Don't get
the idea I'm enjoying any of this!" Their ego is spared, and they
wouldn't have to admit to any "weakness.""
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From: guest (Dee Cypher)
, 68 months, post #31 |
Have you considered asking the authors directly? In my stories,
I've ended with both switching back and without switching back.
It depends on how the story is developing, and also how lazy I'm
feeling. It's so much easier to leave it on as 'and well they're
stuck forever, the gravity of the situation washed over them in an
overwhelming manner, et c.' rather than delve into the gratitude of
switching back. In fact, I think I ended one of my stories with
'and the other body dies, bummer'.
...Looking back on that, I realize my stories are straight trash
lol. I need to set a higher bar next time I get behind the
keyboard.
Any other authors out there want to add their 2 cents?
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From: guest (Passi Through)
, 68 months, post #32 |
Clancy688 nails it. The “stuck as” fantasy goes a bit hand in hand
with the “no one knows you were once male” fantasy. It’s about not
being perceived as having actually wanted to be female. Even today,
non-cis gendered folk are often ostracized— If no one knew, or at
least people didn’t think it was your “fault”, maybe they’d be more
accepting. And maybe some of us would be more accepting of
ourselves.
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From: guest (KJN)
, 68 months, post #33 |
“Non cis gendered” - What not just say transgendered? Is that now a
bad term in the PC world?
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From: guest (MrInternetMan)
, 68 months, post #34 |
Just part of the fantasy, I guess.
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From: guest (not a spambot)
, 68 months, post #35 |
I cant think of a single stuck ending, but I never go to that
fiction place, more tv and movies.
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From: guest
, 63 months, post #36 |
@not a spambot, you should go there & read the stories. Many great
materials there.
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From: guest (Brayn)
, 63 months, post #37 |
I would say it's more to do with writers short circuiting an
obvious plot point. If you got gender reversed, most people who
read a story would say, "why don't you focus on trying to get back
to normal?". By forcing it to be an invoulentary end approach, it
basically is forcing the plot point "you have to get used to this"
instead.
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From: guest (CuriouslyCurious)
, 63 months, post #38 |
I used to and at times still share with Jill's POV. Especially in
matters where you're writing a swap where the swap is dealing with
one person being very unsympathetic, snobby, mean, or outright
evil. Although that comes across a philosophical argument of even
if a person is evil, do they deserve to have their lives stolen
from them and so on. My most basic story tends to assume, yes but
as I've matured as a writer the more grey area that occurs is more
interesting for me to write at times.
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