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From: guest (guessed)
, 87 months, post #61 |
@Bluenote #60
Yuck/Bauxite wrote "At the end of the day, you're just mad because
. I, like the majority of humans, believe there are only two
genders and you can't stand it."
In the context of this thread
the "you're just mad because...and you can't stand it" is what
makes this a bulverism. It dismisses the criticisms of his attempts
to argue that transwomen are in someway inauthentic. Rather, he
accuses those who continue to disagree with him of doing so for
some emotional reason.
Likewise, in the context of this thread, I think the phrase "most
human beings" might reasonably be understood as an ad numerum, but
I will allow that the inference was mine and that Yuck/Bauxite
might not have been arguing that the weight of popular opinion was
proof of his position.
But then I only said it "might be a hat trick.
As for abuse of logic, not so much no. I have pointed out a couple
places where Yuck/Bauxite argued badly and/or dishonestly.
Yuck/Bauxite has repeated tried to argue that there is a test which
may be used to distinguish a transwoman from a "real" woman (by
which he seems to mean ciswoman). I don't think anyone has tried to
argue that transwomen are, formally and necessarily, "real" women
-- rather several people have tried to sexplain that there was not
one of his proposed measures of authenticity which would not
exclude some ciswomen from the "real" category.
It has also been pointed out to him that the idea of essential
biological gender is dubious.
When I have mentioned logical fallacies, it was in critiquing his
arguments in response to these explanations and elaborations. Not
to argue that his position is wrong, nor to argue that the
positions of those who disagree with him are right.
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From: guest (Bluenote)
, 87 months, post #62 |
What arguments!?! He is making assertions!! That is what I am
saying NO ONE HERE IS MAKING A LOGICAL ARGUMENT!! Do you even know
what a logical argument is? How can you apply logical fallacies to
something that is not even a logical argument? I have not seen a
single argument that yuck has made - they are all assertions.
And now you're trying to weasel out of it by saying "I said 'might
be'" - then why say it at all? This is hopeless. Are there any
logicians in the audience? Anyone? If you actually think what is
going on here is a logical argument then show me. Diagram it. I
gotta see this.
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From: guest (guessed)
, 87 months, post #63 |
@Bluenote #62 "What arguments!?! He is making assertions!!"
True enough. Yuck/Bauxite is stating (asserting) his premise. Over
and over again. Hence the charge of "argumentum ad nauseum".
In post #4 "Has it been scientifically proven that his male DNA is
now female DNA? Once that happens then he can be a she. Until that
happens, he's a he."
I'd parse this as a deductive argument. The premise is that there
is something essentially female ("DNA in this first instance"). The
observation (or supposition) is that the transwoman in question
does not possess thing. The conclusion: the transwoman is therefore
a man.
I interpreted everything posted by Yuck/Bauxite (as well as the
unsigned poster #50 who I took to be Yuck/Bauxite) from that point
on as an elaboration on/repetition of that argument -- one or
another markers that might be used to distinguish a real woman with
"science".
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From: guest (Bluenote)
, 87 months, post #64 |
His base assumption is that DNA determines sex. His conclusions
follow. He restates this position in reply to others. If someone's
base assumption is that one's DNA is the final arbiter of one's sex
how do you go about refuting it? What argument could you make?
Everything you say will be a non sequiter because the DNA hasn't
changed. It can't. I think he even stipulated that outliers, like
YY, or XYY, are not a concern. I can't count what he's doing as ad
nauseum. He could have said he hasn't changed his mind, it would
have been the same thing - is that ad nauseum? I mean, come on! How
can you have a logical argument if you can't agree on base
assumptions? Do you understand? He wasn't making the argument that
DNA determines sex - it was a given, at least as far as he was
concerned. I really have a hard time understanding how everyone
misses that. You are arguing from different base assumptions,
because obviously, for the transgendered, you can't have
that as a base assumption. So the "argument" is reduced to "I'm
right, you're wrong. No! I'm
right, you're
wrong!" If you call that an argument.
And the funny thing is - yuck recognized that from the get-go. He
said something like, think what you like, this is what I think. He
wasn't saying you had to think like he did, only that he didn't
think like you did. He wasn't "arguing" at all.
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From: guest
, 87 months, post #65 |
Yes he was!
;-)
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From: guest (Bluenote)
, 87 months, post #66 |
And ... here we go again.
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From: guest (Yuck)
, 87 months, post #67 |
Once again, I never said you lefties couldn't believe that there
are a million genders or a man can be a woman and a woman can be a
man.
I simply said you're not going to change my mind and my opinion on
the matter. You need to realize that in the real world aka the
world in which you are out in public and away from your computer
that a lot of people don't agree with your opinion that a million
genders exist and anyone can be any gender they want to be as long
as they say it or believe it.
You're in the minority.
Keep thinking that there are a million genders and a man can be a
woman and a woman can be a man. You can also think that a dog can
be a cat and a monkey can be an elephant.
At the end of the day you will never change my mind or opinion.
Accept it or not. I don't really care. Personally, I find the
aggravation that it gives you very amusing and entertaining.
Also, if you hate evil white males like myself so much then start a
revolution and exterminate them. If that will make you happy and
feel better about yourself and clear your conscience of white guilt
then go ahead. Embrace your hatred and go full barbarian.
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From: guest (Capslocktransgirl)
, 87 months, post #68 |
Yuck, for the love of all that is hetero, please stop devoting more
and more words to say the same thing over and over. Christ alive
you're like a broken record man, we get it, "you can't stand blah
blah lefties blah blah million genders blah blah majority blah blah
minority minority" news flash everyone, Transes are minorities stop
the presses. You are the human equivalent of the as-seen-on-TV
talkback parrot. Christ, if you want to see your words so often
just use notepad.exe, jeeeeeeeeeez. Barbarian, my queer ass, get
outta here with that noise. We don't get violent we're just gonna
make fun of you and feel superior.
And whether aserrations were made or not, this, as a debate or
discussion is going nowhere. Can this be done now? We softballed
the concepts but you can't make someone swing the bat. This is out
of hand in the head hitting a wall way, and CTE is no joke.
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From: guest (Achilescomics)
, 87 months, post #69 |
Is anybody else realizing the irony of Yucks positions that he
happens to be saying this in a transformation message board that
regularly shows transgender content? What are you doing on this
website sir? Do you delete your visits on this site out of your
browser history?
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From: guest
, 87 months, post #70 |
Actually, I find it amazing that he thinks only "lefties" have this
opinion. I am fairly conservative in my political opinions and I
also think he's wrong with the stubbornness of his attitude and,
frankly, he's being an ass.
If you can't define what makes someone male or female in a way that
is objectively measurable and yet, insist that "it's obvious" or "I
know" it's clearly an indefensible position. And rather than just
say something like "well, it's my opinion" and just shut up about
it, he's being a troll and constantly arguing with others'
seemingly more detached "arguments".
Like Achilescomics just said, where this is happening would seem to
indicate that his goal is exactly to be a troll.
Oh, and, by the way, a friend of mine who is a post-op transwoman
has told me that she used to speak exactly the same way many years
ago. She said that telling herself that she could never actually
become a real woman was one of her forms of denial. Take what you
like from that story.
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From: guest (guessed)
, 87 months, post #71 |
@bluenote #64 "His base assumption is that DNA determines sex. His
conclusions follow. He restates this position in reply to others.
If someone's base assumption is that one's DNA is the final arbiter
of one's sex how do you go about refuting it?"
By falsifying the premise.
By offering factual evidence that the assertion is a category error.
I assert that "plants" and "trees" are the same thing. I observe
that maples trees are plants. That pine trees are plants. That every tree
I find is a plant. Thus, I concluded, all plants are trees. QED.
You then show me a carrot. I laugh at the carrot and refuse agree
that it is a plant but not also a tree. When I realize that
defending this
assertion means rewriting every botany text and dictionary, I
dissolve into cognitive dissonance and claim that carrots are
exceptional and don't count, that most people agree that all plants
are trees, that I am only showing you the carrot because I want to
undermine the social order that grants me unearned privilege, and
start attacking other positions that I suspect carrot lovers must
hold in order to start an argument that I think will get the
trusted users to lock the thread so that I won't have to think
about this anymore.
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From: guest (tru1)
, 87 months, post #72 |
born with dick=man
born with vagina=women
born with both= hermaphrodite
anything else is something else...not your mentally ill ass's
decision to dictate to the world...be happy to be accepted and stop
arguing terminology and your liberal bullying...I support your
choices and different lifestyles but fuck off with your bull
shit...transitioned are not and never will be truly the gender they
are switching too!!
not a caveman thing, hate thing or any stupid idea your little
liberal brain wants to argue!! The 1-3% of population gender
confusion are not gonna dictate facts with their emotional
science...
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From: guest (Dreamer)
, 87 months, post #73 |
born with dick=man
born with vagina=women
born with both= hermaphrodite
anything else is something else...
curious dick and vagina are the same organ :) only developed under
diferents "code" the code being a set of biological interactions
not is perfect and if not is perfect for create organs sometimes (
hermafrodites or not reconosible sex) also not is perfect for
create a standard man o female mind then also is so weird that can
exist diferences between mind and body . When you wanted somebody
you are not wanted and organ is wanted a person and this person is
body , mind and soul
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From: guest (Dreamer)
, 87 months, post #74 |
sorry if my english is crazy ^-^ hope understand the idea :)
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From: guest (Kara)
, 87 months, post #75 |
Did you pay for the full hour argument or just the 15-minute one?
;)
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From: guest (guessed)
, 87 months, post #76 |
@ Kara #75
Not necessarily. I *could* be arguing in my spare time.
I had the same thought reading Bluenote's "its not an argument"
riff.
But I have to say, I rather liked Bluenote's attempt to argue that
Yuck/Bauxite's argument was illogical and indefensible which
therefore made it irrefutable. It seems like that might be begging
the question, except that it is so batsh!t.
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From: guest (guessed)
, 87 months, post #77 |
There was supposed to be a siley in there -- lext try again
@Kara #75
^.^
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From: guest (Yuck)
, 87 months, post #78 |
I'm dead serious. If you guys hate evil white cis males since you
shame them so much then why not just kill all of them? Back up your
talk with action.
In my opinion, yes DNA, chromosomes, and genetics determine a
human's gender. Apparently you guys hate that but I don't care.
It's my opinion. Agree or disagree with it. I don't give a shit. I
just think it's cute and funny how you get so bent out of shape
because I don't agree with you.
Why do you give a shit about what I think? I don't even know who
you are. I don't give a shit about you and you don't give a shit
about me. Why not just accept defeat and move on? Or you can
continue on your eternal failure of trying to convince that you're
right and I'm wrong.
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From: guest
, 87 months, post #79 |
As with everything else that's been said, we can turn that around.
Why is it so important to you that your opinion be accepted? Why
don't you just "accept defeat" and move on?
Again, if it's all down to "DNA, chromosomes and genetics" you are
saying that any woman who is XY (which is possible with AIS) is not
a woman and just about anyone would agree that they are. You
haven't even accepted that whatever "rule" you pick has exceptions.
YOUR stubbornness is suspect. A lot of people here have a person,
vested interest in being opinionated -- you're (in their minds, at
least) denying them what they are. I'm curious why it's SO
important to you that you "need to have the last word."
And, yes, I know I am doing that, too. I know that I have a vested
interest, but I will refrain from explaining.
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From: guest
, 87 months, post #80 |
It does come down to white cis male privilege. As far as I know, no
one here hates white cis males.
But some white cis males are so used to their privilege and to that
the idea that everyone else is inferior, that they fly into a
narcissistic rage when challenged by someone who doesn't have the
same privilege.
He feels like he deserves to "win", and he feels that you are
harming him by not letting him "win"(as if winning means something
when discussing identities).
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