|
|
|
|
|
From: guest (Yuck)
, 87 months, post #41 |
Whatever. Keep thinking that men are women and women are men. Let
me guess you're going to brag about how the number of black friends
you have makes you an expert on black people right?
|
|
From: guest (ROBAUXITE THX)
, 87 months, post #42 |
Don't take the name too seriously but finally, someone brings up a
salient point that is worth discussing.
So, here's the cool thing about hormone replacement therapy, it has
the capacity to change nearly everything you brought up (certain
conditions apply) except genetics. Genetics, specifically the Y
chromosome, doesn't matter in sexual development after initiates
the development of testis. Pretty much every bit of masculinization
after that is testosterone. Block it, and you end up with a woman
with internal testicles and a ton of estrogen, generated when
testosterone is converted to estrogen by aromatase. Genetics
matter, but in different ways and degrees. The coding to generate a
"female" is already there in a male, and one gene translocated to
the X chromosome and you have an intersex person who is much more
phenotypically male. The framework is always feminine, and sex is
just a degree of virilization.
The CNS of a trans person already has typical features of their
gender identity in certain regions, and HRT changes other regions
into the gender they're transitioning towards. Even basal
ganglia/spinal cord functions become more gender-typical. Orgasm
intensity, focus, and refractory period all change with HRT.
Transwomen can have orgasms that are more body oriented and in
quicker succession than they could before, and trans men have
sharper more concise ones focused on their clitorus. That's
cortical and brainstemmy.
Muscle fibers change HEAVILY with HRT. Androgen receptors are
distributed differentially by muscle type. You block it, the muscle
drops from that area, YMMV to be fair. Skeletal structure of a
trans person is pretty damn near identical to the sex they identify
as if they take blockers during adolescence and hormones
afterwards, full stop. The red blood cell count shifts with HRT .
Fat distribution... HRT. not sure about heart and lungs and shit.
Basically though, hormones dictate the sexual dimorphism of cell
biology, and that is changed with HRT. It is inaccurate to say they
are men at that point. You can make the distinction that they are
different than cis women biologically, fine, but they are not male
except for their DNA and bone structure if they transitioned later
on. Again, DNA doesn't make the man as much as the testosterone it
tells the fetus to pump out does.
|
|
From: guest (ROBOTRONICSUPERSONIC)
, 87 months, post #43 |
That may've rambled bc I'm really tired. and that was in response
to bauxite, if that wasn't clear.
Also, Yuck plz. science isn't just a word you can throw out and say
you've won the argument. There are scientist(s) here in this very
thread, if you'd believe it. When someone just says "bc science" it
is because they don't understand the science well enough to argue
their point. Which is you. Because you don't. You just know how to
pound out the word "science" which we are very proud of you for.
good job. a+ 5/7 perfect logic bravo heckin good stuff bae
|
|
From: guest
, 87 months, post #44 |
Well, "it's obvious" isn't much of an argument either. I love how
someone said that "there are exception to anything you can mention"
(I don't know if that's an exact quote) and the response included
something like "well, don't bring up the exceptions" (i.e.
"hermaphrodites").
Ummmm... 2+2=5, and don't bring up math!
|
|
From: guest (ROBOTRAINS)
, 87 months, post #45 |
Oh, I worded that wrong, I meant a salient point in response to the
"define sex" question. it was dismissal, sure, but at least it was
dismisal with points I could work down. sorry :p
|
|
From: guest (CAPSTRANS)
, 87 months, post #46 |
and also, my favorite so far was the south park one at the
beginning.
|
|
From: guest (guessed)
, 87 months, post #47 |
Not to derail the conversation -- but Yuck's trolling is making me
wonder if there is an opportunity here? If this kind of
communication -- message boards, twitter, etc. can be used to
discuss issues. Or, rather, it makes me wonder if this kind of
pointless and unproductive talking at each other/past each other is
all that is possible on this platform.
If Yuck and Miss Mako (for example) were in the same room, talking
across a table, would the conversation be more useful to either one
of them?
I heard a scary phrase on the radio the other day, the speaker was
talking about the current social and cultural divisions in western
countries (the US in particular). He talked about a "post-fact"
world. By which he meant a population that could not agree with
itself about matters of fact, a population that was suspicious of
authority (news media, scientists, law makers, etc.) to the point
that no source of information was treated as authoritative or
trustworthy. A world where all
sources of information then become equally trustworthy.
Its a pretty bleak prospect -- especially for those of us already
living on the margins and subject to bigotry born of misinformation
and disinformation.
|
|
From: guest (Bauxite)
, 87 months, post #48 |
>From: guest (ROBAUXITE THX) , post #42
Great, nice. You can write a whole paper on it.
Guess what though? None of that is "This is now a woman". That is
all "this person is now visually and socially indistinguishable
from a woman."
Also the muscle fiber thing, sure they change but they aren't a
womans muscles. The muscles in a transwomans body are superior to a
natural born womans musculature simply for having been born male.
It's a fact of anatomy that male musculature is superior to female
musculature even if the muscles themselves are identical in size
and shape. This one is a minor thing but figured I'd bring it up as
you seem to be confusing muscle fiber for muscle composition.
|
|
From: guest
, 87 months, post #49 |
Wow... pedantic to the point of meaninglessness.
|
|
From: guest
, 87 months, post #50 |
Right right, so not having to take artificial hormones, having your
own organs be correct, being able to get pregnant and have kids,
periods, having the correct internal anatomy, nerve mappings,
etc... meaningless. Sure thing guy.
|
|
From: guest (guessed)
, 87 months, post #51 |
@guest #50
Gish Gallop
@Yuck/Bauxite Argumentum ad nauseam
and also this
and probably this
(PDF of the original HERE
)
|
|
From: MissMako
, 87 months, post #52 |
To "guessed" post #47
We do live in this kind of world and as long as we have free speech
- people will say what they wanna say regardless of the facts or
not.
At the end of the day - I know who and what I am. I have the life
long experience and personal medical and scientific attention
affirming that I am a "Transgender Woman". People can debate all
they want - and come up with their own theories and conclusions.
Fine. Still doesn't change the fact that I am a WOMAN in the eyes
of the law. In the eyes of the medical and scientific community. In
the eyes of my FRIENDS - FAMILY - PEERS - WORK - THE DAILY WORLD I
LIVE IN - but the most important of all of these - in the eyes of
myself.
If people want to know more about my own experience - then I'm
happy to have a civil conversation about it. If people want to shut
me down - bully me - tell me I'm wrong - that is actually more a
reflection of them than it is me.
I don't presume I know what it's like to be African American. Or
Middle Eastern. Or Mexican. Or Asian. I don't presume I know what
it's like to have Parkinson's Disease. Or born with any abnormality
from what the majority of the population is born as. I myself would
rather sit down with these people to learn and grasp - because they
know what it's like to be them - NOT ME. I often find it amusing
when a Non-Transgender Person all of a sudden seems to know more
about me and my life and what it means to be Trans than they claim
I do. These are people you just can't reason with. You say the sky
is BLUE and they will find some way to argue and tell you - you're
wrong - cause this is what they do. They want their NARRATIVE to be
what WINS. Even if it means lying and using incorrect information.
So while I support free speech and opinions - one must always take
a moment to listen and ask yourself "Who is saying this and why?
What experience do they have? Are they a good representation of the
subject matter? Are they well informed? Are they objective or
subjetive? Are they a professional in this field or just a plumber
somewhere in Fargo?
This brings weight to any deep discussion about issues. And can
legitmize or deligitmize a conversation.
I always suggest to people I know - before they get upset with
someone who just wants to SPEAK but never LISTENS... "Take a little
time to figure out the person you are getting upset with and listen
to the language they use; if they are objective and are skilled or
have personal experience in the fiield you are disucssing; and if
they have any respect for others with a different POV from them. If
all they do is attack and lash out and only want their opinions to
be validated and believed as TRUTH - then these are people you just
need to move on from - because they have no interest in the actual
TRUTH."
|
|
From: guest (guessed)
, 87 months, post #53 |
@Miss Mako #52
I was wondering if Yuck/Bauxite would be so adamant, or if those of
us arguing with him would be so pedantic, if this conversation were
happening in meat space rather than on screens.
From his deflections regarding other allegedly liberal positions --
the non-sequitur about climate change and weird "bragging about"
having black friends thing in post #41 (assuming that no one
arguing with him may actually be a person of color) -- I get the
impression that he doesn't spend much time looking away from Fox
News/Breitbart/WND.
While we are typing at each other Yuck /Bauxite will not argue
honestly because he doesn't know what honest argument looks like.
Those of us arguing with him cannot argue by his rules, because he
will cry "Tu quoque" as soon as we stoop to attack.
I wonder if -- hope that, really -- this would not be the case if
one of us (trans, or ally) were to meet with him IRL. Away from the
screen. Away from the dopamine hit of seeing the "post in
response".
|
|
From: guest (Yuck)
, 87 months, post #54 |
BTW, I voted for Gary Johnson. He supported gay marriage, social
justice warriors, and fetus murdering.
I mentioned climate change and black people because you liberals
love bragging about how you're going to save the Earth by shaming
people for driving cars and being white.
At the end of the day, you're just mad because I, like the majority
of humans, believe there are only two genders and you can't stand
it.
You can identify as whatever or say you're something that you want
to be but at the end of the day, you're still either a man or a
woman.
I know that on the internet you guys think you're in the majority
about how there are a million genders but in reality you are in the
minority. Most people don't agree with you but go ahead and take
joy from other internet social justice warriors that think that
facebook likes and posts are going to save and help people from
their problems.
|
|
From: guest (The caps lock happy trans girl)
, 87 months, post #55 |
Oh shit, Yuck nailed it. EssJayDubyas hate you! It kills me that
every reputable medical professional organization in the western
world agrees with my worldview! I really hate that, it's terrible
not being taken seriously like you. I know deep down that I'm not a
million genders, SAD!
And before you think I'm just a keyboard warrior, i'm actually
doing shit irl to advance the Trans(TM) agenda and it's all
according to keikaku now. We've got agents inside the EPA, and
WE'RE PUTTING CHEMICALS IN THE WATER THAT'S TURNING THE FREAKING
FROGS {trans}! next thing you know, you'll be lining up at the
druggist begging for spiro and pickles. Cuck.
|
|
From: guest (also that same trans girl)
, 87 months, post #56 |
And bauxite, if it looks like a duck, feels like a duck, has the
hormones of a duck, sounds like a duck, tastes like a duck, and
[copulates like a duck, but really it was a pheasant...
I'd still serve that shit up as duck confit and you'd never be the
wiser, love. ;) xoxo
|
|
From: guest (guessed)
, 87 months, post #57 |
Yuck/Bauxite #54 "I, like the majority of humans, believe there are
only two genders and you can't stand it"
I think this might be a hat trick: Dunning-Kruger, argumentum ad populum
, and bulverism
.
We also now know that Yuck/Bauxite believes that everyone on the
internet is a white cismale citizen of the USA.
Again, I am stunned that a platform that allows us to communicate
instantly, effortlessly, with an increasingly diverse cross-section
of humanity has somehow become a tool to harden and fortify our
tendency to provincialism and prejudice.
|
|
From: guest
, 87 months, post #58 |
Simply put, humans by nature seek out information that reaffirms
their own beliefs rather than challenges it.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds
|
|
From: guest (guessed)
, 87 months, post #59 |
@guessed #58
Has there every been an academic discipline so freighted with "just
so" stories and cargo cult science as evolutionary psychology?
The idea that confirmation bias and willful ignorance (which are
NOT the same thing) must somehow have been adaptive traits on the
"savannahs' of Africa" (presumably the rift basins of East Africa)
is a load of crap.
IF these habits of thought were innate and heritable (which is not
certain), all that is necessary for these traits to persist in a
population is that they not interfere -- too much -- with
reproduction for every carrier.
Humans are a collection of just-good-enough adapatations, and
not-universally-lethal maladaptations. Is it not more likely that
our leaky and uncertain reason is like our re-purposed quadruped
knees and elbows? Walking upright conferred an advantage, and bad
knees didn't kill off bipeds quickly or in great enough numbers
enough to select against bipedalism.
Worse, though, blaming some Road Runner cartoon version of
"evolution" for these failures of reason misses the point that you
can LEARN to avoid these errors. It comes perilously close to excusing
incuriosty, credulousness, and intellectual laziness.
If you are going to blame evolution, why not compare willful
ignorance to color blindness? Inarguably maladaptive, but with
posing low risk of lethality to the carrier (however lethal it may
be to a pedestrian in the crosswalk in front of a color-blind
driver)
|
|
From: guest (Bluenote)
, 87 months, post #60 |
Post#57 - You are wrong. Those were assertions. A majority believe
there are only 2 genders. An assertion. You can't stand that a
majority believe there are only 2 genders. Another assertion.
There's no "therefore", although I imagine you were assuming that
it was "therefore trans aren't women". I'm not even sure if that
was implied, since the point he was trying to make was that a
majority of people do not believe as you do and that you find that
annoying.
You see, when I say I do not believe trannies are women, that is an
assertion. You can dispute that a priori
, but I really don't see how since I'm expressing a belief. Are you
saying I don't believe that? How would you know? Can you read my
mind?
You can dispute his statement that you "can't stand that" rather
easily just by stating that you don't care what others think, which
is what I believe Miss Mako did.
In conclusion, I wish people would stop abusing logic. No where in
this thread is there a logical argument, pro or
con that trannies are women.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Add a New Message to This Thread
Posting Guidelines
Primary
- ANY POST(s) MAY BE REMOVED at the discretion of moderators
for violation of this website's guidelines/rules or any law
applicable to this website.
- All discussions must be transformation related OR of interest to
the transformation community.
- Please try to keep posts appropriate for younger teenage eyes to
view (Things you'd be comfortable sharing with a 13 year-old).
- Do not 'attack' other posters. You may attack an individual's
comments but not the individual.
- Be polite, courteous, and respectful. Please keep the conversations
civil.
- While use of an online alias is ok. Do NOT pretend to be another
(or registered) user.
Intellectual Property
- Do not post direct links to complete copyrighted works. Links
provided by (or approved by) the copyright holder may
be exempt.
- Links to content hosted on websites that have a clear, and easy to
find, process for dealing with infringement(s); and a known
reputation for following through with said process, may
be allowed.
- Please read this site's views on copyrighted content on the FAQ
page.
- Do not plagiarize. Credit your sources.
Helpful
- For posts and material that are not safe for viewing in a workplace
or with younger eyes, please mark the thread or post as either, "MATURE CONTENT", "ADULT CONTENT",
or "NSFW".
- Please post clear SPOILER warnings if you intend to give away
details that would spoil the story for those who have not yet seen
the material, preferably by using the spoiler
tags (don't forget to close the spoiler text with the end tag),
like so: <spoiler>Text to be "hidden"
</spoiler>
-- For additional help, please see: HOW TO: Use Spoiler tags
message thread.
- When starting a New Message Thread, please include details about
your topic of discussion or request in the Subject
field to help draw in readers who are interested and avoid wasting
the time of those who are not. Also helpful in searching for the
topic/thread later.
- If you post a link, please provide some detail as to what it is.
Identify the material if possible.
- Please post in English, or include an English translation, when
possible.
- If seeking material / information, include the results of your own
efforts so that others can offer better help (and avoid wasting
time and effort on redundant searches).
- When starting a new thread to request material or information,
please begin the subject with "REQ:"
or "REQUEST".
Etiquette
- Do not post messages in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.
- Do not attack a user for improper spelling and/or grammar. Not all
of our community uses English as their native language.
- Please do not stray (far) from the topic of the original post.
- If a poster provides their contact information for any reason, do
NOT clutter the Message Board by asking them to contact you. They
gave out their contact information for a reason.
- No begging. Ask nicely.
- Do not feed the trolls and spammers. Please ignore them.
- Do not keep asking for clips after others have already posted
information on where to obtain the material.
- Please have some patience. Not everyone visits the board daily.
Your post may not be seen (by someone with the correct information
or idea) for several days or weeks.
- No bumping. Bumping will be treated as intentional spamming.
Advertising
- Do not post advertisements.
- One exception is for products or services that relate to entries on
this site. And even then, only post an announcement once. You
should add links or content to the appropriate database entries. Do
not repeat this information to the message board. Doing so will be
considered spamming.
Miscellaneous
- This list is neither all-inclusive or all-exclusive in nature, and
is meant to guide everyone on appropriate content for and conduct
on this Message Board.
- The purpose of this Message Board is to share information about
transformation-related content, news, ideas, etc. Also acceptable,
are conversations that are of interest to the transformation
community.
- Moderation of posts for reasons not listed above are at the
discretion of the Trusted Users who moderate this website, for the
purpose of keeping things within the "spirit" of the owner's wishes
and the website's purpose.
- If you disagree with a moderation decision, please make an argument
as to why it should be reinstated. Use the posting guidelines to justify your point.
Do not attack the moderator.
[Edit this Page] | |
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|