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From: guest
, 86 months, post #21 |
You've convinced ME with what you're saying there. Yes, your
opinion IS irrelevant and I don't care what you think. Thanks for
helping me realize that. Have a nice life.
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From: guest (ROBOTINSIDE)
, 86 months, post #22 |
Yuck, bruh, we aren't even talking to you any more; we're not even
talking about you. We're talking about the concept of you. Haha,
that's a bit removed from losing our shit. XD do you, man.
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From: guest (Yuck)
, 86 months, post #23 |
I'm still here.
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From: guest (ROBOT NOT A TRAINS)
, 86 months, post #24 |
Cool. Like I said, do you, man. I'm enjoying debating the merits of
engaging in debates with people on random discussion boards on a
random discussion board. So meta I almost forget that I need to
sleeeeeeeeep
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From: guest (A TRAINSFORMER)
, 86 months, post #25 |
Just bc they are steam powered doesn't mean the trains genres don't
need them zeds
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From: guest (Bauxite)
, 86 months, post #26 |
Eh, yuck isn't entirely wrong but he's also not entirely correct.
Medical science today is not capable of turning a man into a woman.
It is capable of reshaping the male body to be visually
indistinguishable from a woman however.
I believe science will eventually make a complete transition
possible but that day is not today.
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From: guest (Bluenote)
, 86 months, post #27 |
Camille Paglia has some compelling views on transgenderism, I'm
with yuck on this, but I also think (which he also expressed)
whatever floats your boat. If you think undergoing plastic surgery
will make you a woman and bring you happiness, go for it.What do
you care what I or anyone else thinks? That's the problem, though,
isn't it? To be completely secure in your gender identity you
require everyone to believe in it, too. That's unfortunate because
it is simply impossible. The next best thing, I suppose, is to
attempt to marginalize those with a different opinion.
BTW, Bauxite, saying he's not entirely correct doesn't make any
sense. You yourself say that science can't turn a man into a woman
(and vice versa, I guess). That science MAY at some future time
accomplish this feat does not prove he's wrong. As a matter of
fact, if at some future time science IS able to perform such a
thing I think that I (and maybe even yuck, though I can't speak for
him) will gladly say, yes indeed, you are a woman.
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From: guest
, 86 months, post #28 |
For all practical purposes, if you can't tell the difference, a F2M
is effectively the same as a woman who has had a complete
hysterectomy. I don't know too many people who decide what someone
is on the basis of their DNA -- I have lots of friends and have no
idea what their DNA is. So... If it looks like a woman, talks like
a woman, seems like a woman -- as far as you will ever know, it IS
a woman (and ditto for F2Ms being male).
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From: guest (Bluenote)
, 86 months, post #29 |
We're circling back around here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but
you're saying that gender is appearance: so is a female
impersonator a woman? By definition they are not, but they look
like a woman, talk like a woman, and seem like a woman. They may be
treated as women, but only because of their deception. Once the
deception is revealed they are treated as men who dress up to look
like women.
In some cultures men may "become" women if they choose. They dress
as women, they perform female roles in their society, they are
treated as women - but everyone knows they are men behaving as
women and that it is okay They do not require surgery or hormone
treatments, either. There is no deception involved. We don't have
that in Western culture, except rather vaguely (as in the afore
mentioned female impersonators).
It seems to me that this is not what the commenters who disagree
with yuck are arguing, and yuck and I (if I understand yuck
correctly - I don't wish to put words in his mouth) contend that
there is more to being a woman than simply the appearance of being
a woman. There is so much more that could be said about this -
books have been written on it - but I'd prefer to leave it at that.
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From: guest
, 86 months, post #30 |
Yes, there is much more. And many people have that much more --
only thing they are missing is some of the experiences that most
girls get. And not all girls get those either.
Looking back through this whole thread, I've yet to see what
someone who disagrees defines a woman as... You keep saying men
can't "become" women but many of these people are women from day
one. Just because you didn't recognize them as such doesn't make it
not true.
It's okay... live in your echo chamber.
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From: guest (Yuck)
, 86 months, post #31 |
I'm talking about the biological and scientific aspect of it. When
it comes to society, I don't give a crap. I simply stating that a
man cannot biologically and scientifically change from being a man
to a woman.
You can identify and call yourself a woman all you want and even
have a parade to celebrate but at the end of the day, you're still
BIOLOGICALLY a man.
Identity and biology are not the same. They are different.
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From: guest
, 86 months, post #32 |
Still not answering the question. What is it that makes someone
"BIOLOGICALLY" male or female. If you think it's chromosomes, it
isn't -- people are born contrary to what they chromosomes say. If
you think it's the presence or absence of a uterus, it isn't -- I
know women who were born without one -- doesn't make them any less
female.
Funny how you just can't seem to answer the question... I suspect
it's because you know that there isn't an answer that doesn't have
an exception and, as MM said above, you just can't deal with the
concept that gender is not as binary as you convinced yourself it
is and, for some reason, that scares you.
MM was right. You will not be convinced by logic.
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From: guest (ROBODONE)
, 86 months, post #33 |
I think it's hilarious that we, trans people, are marginalizing the
MAJORITY group by telling them their ideas and arguments are facile
and inaccurate.
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From: guest (ROBODONE)
, 86 months, post #34 |
Meanwhile, we mention our existence and that is grounds for a
debate that we get chastised for not participating in.
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From: guest (Bluenote)
, 86 months, post #35 |
The question in question was answered. That there are women born
without a uterus is irrelevant to the answer. If you weren't so
busy being disingenuous you would know that.
I haven't been trying to convince anyone of what I personally
believe. I have been attempting to have a serious discussion.
Believe it or not I do respect your point of view. I know many
don't, but I wouldn't be here if I didn't have sympathy for you.
I'd like to hear what you all say, but you know what? To heck with
it. I don't need to be insulted and belittled. And please, mods,
don't take this as a request to censure anyone. Leave it up as a
reminder to me what happens when one tries to have a dialog.
I now return you to your echo chamber.
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From: guest (Yuck)
, 86 months, post #36 |
Last time I checked, a male is born with a penis and a female is
born with a vagina. Don't throw in hermaphrodites because those are
anomalies.
You can't fight biology.
Did I ever say "you can't be a guy and say you're a girl"? Did I
ever say that? I simply saying that you are never going to convince
me that a boy is a girl and a girl is a boy. You can scream until
your face is as red a tomato but it's not going to change my mind.
You can pretend to be a boy if you're a girl and vice versa. I'm
just saying when it comes to the genetics and biology of it, you
are what you are.
Again, identity and biology are not the same. Biology is the
physical aspect of an individual while identity is the
social/psychological aspect of an individual.
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From: guest (Bauxite)
, 86 months, post #37 |
>From: guest (Bluenote) , post #27
>BTW, Bauxite, saying he's not entirely correct doesn't make any
sense.
The not entirely correct comes from the statement he made that a
man will always be a man. It leaves no room for future scientific
achievements. Thus, mostly correct but not entirely.
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From: guest (Bauxite)
, 86 months, post #38 |
And to the guy who keeps on pressing on what makes someone
biologically female... come on man. The actual genetics, the
nervous system, the brain, muscle fibers, organs, the skeleton, fat
distribution, various organ differences beyond the obvious such as
heart and lung size, etc... really too much to go over. This could
be it's own scientific paper.
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From: guest (Yuck)
, 86 months, post #39 |
I just don't get the science denial. I thought you guys were all
about science. You tell me that every time I drive my car that an
icecap melts yet you refuse to believe simply biology. It's funny
to me.
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From: guest (guessed)
, 86 months, post #40 |
"Don't throw in hermaphrodites because those are anomalies..."
Intersex conditions are not as uncommon as you may suppose
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/intersex-spectrum.html
http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency
"Again, identity and biology are not the same. Biology is the
physical aspect of an individual while identity is the
social/psychological aspect of an individual"
Biology and identity are not distinct. The structure and function
of your brain are biological. Differences in gender identity
correlate with structural and functional differences in the brain.
https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/25/10/3527/387406/Structural-Connectivity-Networks-of-Transgender
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jnr.23832/full
http://harvardlpr.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/9-1_Vanderhorst.pdf
You are simply wrong about this. Neither sex nor gender is as
simply constructed as you insist. There are more kinds of people in
the world just XY men with testicles and XX women with ovaries (for
instance), and the various mixed-and-matched categories are not
rigidly separated not are they immutable.
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