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Stewardess-transgender: from the flight attendant Bernhard to the flight attenda
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From: guest , 86 months, post #21

You've convinced ME with what you're saying there. Yes, your opinion IS irrelevant and I don't care what you think. Thanks for helping me realize that. Have a nice life.

From: guest (ROBOTINSIDE) , 86 months, post #22

Yuck, bruh, we aren't even talking to you any more; we're not even talking about you. We're talking about the concept of you. Haha, that's a bit removed from losing our shit. XD do you, man.

From: guest (Yuck) , 86 months, post #23

I'm still here.

From: guest (ROBOT NOT A TRAINS) , 86 months, post #24

Cool. Like I said, do you, man. I'm enjoying debating the merits of engaging in debates with people on random discussion boards on a random discussion board. So meta I almost forget that I need to sleeeeeeeeep

From: guest (A TRAINSFORMER) , 86 months, post #25

Just bc they are steam powered doesn't mean the trains genres don't need them zeds

From: guest (Bauxite) , 86 months, post #26

Eh, yuck isn't entirely wrong but he's also not entirely correct.

Medical science today is not capable of turning a man into a woman. It is capable of reshaping the male body to be visually indistinguishable from a woman however.

I believe science will eventually make a complete transition possible but that day is not today.

From: guest (Bluenote) , 86 months, post #27

Camille Paglia has some compelling views on transgenderism, I'm with yuck on this, but I also think (which he also expressed) whatever floats your boat. If you think undergoing plastic surgery will make you a woman and bring you happiness, go for it.What do you care what I or anyone else thinks? That's the problem, though, isn't it? To be completely secure in your gender identity you require everyone to believe in it, too. That's unfortunate because it is simply impossible. The next best thing, I suppose, is to attempt to marginalize those with a different opinion.

BTW, Bauxite, saying he's not entirely correct doesn't make any sense. You yourself say that science can't turn a man into a woman (and vice versa, I guess). That science MAY at some future time accomplish this feat does not prove he's wrong. As a matter of fact, if at some future time science IS able to perform such a thing I think that I (and maybe even yuck, though I can't speak for him) will gladly say, yes indeed, you are a woman.

From: guest , 86 months, post #28

For all practical purposes, if you can't tell the difference, a F2M is effectively the same as a woman who has had a complete hysterectomy. I don't know too many people who decide what someone is on the basis of their DNA -- I have lots of friends and have no idea what their DNA is. So... If it looks like a woman, talks like a woman, seems like a woman -- as far as you will ever know, it IS a woman (and ditto for F2Ms being male).

From: guest (Bluenote) , 86 months, post #29

We're circling back around here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that gender is appearance: so is a female impersonator a woman? By definition they are not, but they look like a woman, talk like a woman, and seem like a woman. They may be treated as women, but only because of their deception. Once the deception is revealed they are treated as men who dress up to look like women.

In some cultures men may "become" women if they choose. They dress as women, they perform female roles in their society, they are treated as women - but everyone knows they are men behaving as women and that it is okay They do not require surgery or hormone treatments, either. There is no deception involved. We don't have that in Western culture, except rather vaguely (as in the afore mentioned female impersonators).

It seems to me that this is not what the commenters who disagree with yuck are arguing, and yuck and I (if I understand yuck correctly - I don't wish to put words in his mouth) contend that there is more to being a woman than simply the appearance of being a woman. There is so much more that could be said about this - books have been written on it - but I'd prefer to leave it at that.

From: guest , 86 months, post #30

Yes, there is much more. And many people have that much more -- only thing they are missing is some of the experiences that most girls get. And not all girls get those either.

Looking back through this whole thread, I've yet to see what someone who disagrees defines a woman as... You keep saying men can't "become" women but many of these people are women from day one. Just because you didn't recognize them as such doesn't make it not true.

It's okay... live in your echo chamber.

From: guest (Yuck) , 86 months, post #31

I'm talking about the biological and scientific aspect of it. When it comes to society, I don't give a crap. I simply stating that a man cannot biologically and scientifically change from being a man to a woman.

You can identify and call yourself a woman all you want and even have a parade to celebrate but at the end of the day, you're still BIOLOGICALLY a man.

Identity and biology are not the same. They are different.

From: guest , 86 months, post #32

Still not answering the question. What is it that makes someone "BIOLOGICALLY" male or female. If you think it's chromosomes, it isn't -- people are born contrary to what they chromosomes say. If you think it's the presence or absence of a uterus, it isn't -- I know women who were born without one -- doesn't make them any less female.

Funny how you just can't seem to answer the question... I suspect it's because you know that there isn't an answer that doesn't have an exception and, as MM said above, you just can't deal with the concept that gender is not as binary as you convinced yourself it is and, for some reason, that scares you.

MM was right. You will not be convinced by logic.

From: guest (ROBODONE) , 86 months, post #33

I think it's hilarious that we, trans people, are marginalizing the MAJORITY group by telling them their ideas and arguments are facile and inaccurate.

From: guest (ROBODONE) , 86 months, post #34

Meanwhile, we mention our existence and that is grounds for a debate that we get chastised for not participating in.

From: guest (Bluenote) , 86 months, post #35

The question in question was answered. That there are women born without a uterus is irrelevant to the answer. If you weren't so busy being disingenuous you would know that.

I haven't been trying to convince anyone of what I personally believe. I have been attempting to have a serious discussion. Believe it or not I do respect your point of view. I know many don't, but I wouldn't be here if I didn't have sympathy for you.

I'd like to hear what you all say, but you know what? To heck with it. I don't need to be insulted and belittled. And please, mods, don't take this as a request to censure anyone. Leave it up as a reminder to me what happens when one tries to have a dialog.

I now return you to your echo chamber.

From: guest (Yuck) , 86 months, post #36

Last time I checked, a male is born with a penis and a female is born with a vagina. Don't throw in hermaphrodites because those are anomalies.

You can't fight biology.

Did I ever say "you can't be a guy and say you're a girl"? Did I ever say that? I simply saying that you are never going to convince me that a boy is a girl and a girl is a boy. You can scream until your face is as red a tomato but it's not going to change my mind.

You can pretend to be a boy if you're a girl and vice versa. I'm just saying when it comes to the genetics and biology of it, you are what you are.

Again, identity and biology are not the same. Biology is the physical aspect of an individual while identity is the social/psychological aspect of an individual.

From: guest (Bauxite) , 86 months, post #37

>From: guest (Bluenote) , post #27
>BTW, Bauxite, saying he's not entirely correct doesn't make any sense.

The not entirely correct comes from the statement he made that a man will always be a man. It leaves no room for future scientific achievements. Thus, mostly correct but not entirely.

From: guest (Bauxite) , 86 months, post #38

And to the guy who keeps on pressing on what makes someone biologically female... come on man. The actual genetics, the nervous system, the brain, muscle fibers, organs, the skeleton, fat distribution, various organ differences beyond the obvious such as heart and lung size, etc... really too much to go over. This could be it's own scientific paper.

From: guest (Yuck) , 86 months, post #39

I just don't get the science denial. I thought you guys were all about science. You tell me that every time I drive my car that an icecap melts yet you refuse to believe simply biology. It's funny to me.

From: guest (guessed) , 86 months, post #40

"Don't throw in hermaphrodites because those are anomalies..."

Intersex conditions are not as uncommon as you may suppose

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/intersex-spectrum.html

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

"Again, identity and biology are not the same. Biology is the physical aspect of an individual while identity is the social/psychological aspect of an individual"

Biology and identity are not distinct. The structure and function of your brain are biological. Differences in gender identity correlate with structural and functional differences in the brain.

https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/25/10/3527/387406/Structural-Connectivity-Networks-of-Transgender

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jnr.23832/full

http://harvardlpr.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/9-1_Vanderhorst.pdf

You are simply wrong about this. Neither sex nor gender is as simply constructed as you insist. There are more kinds of people in the world just XY men with testicles and XX women with ovaries (for instance), and the various mixed-and-matched categories are not rigidly separated not are they immutable.

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