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Sorry if this can't/shouldn't be discussed here . . .
From: Polover , 86 months, post #1
I feel like this board does tackle real-world issues sometimes but again, apologize if this is crossing the line; I've had an innocent-intentioned thread deleted before.

I thought it would be interesting to get this community's opinion on this news article. A FTM transitioning teen is being questioned/investigated for competing in girl's wrestling while taking testosterone as a part of transitional therapy. Some say the teen competing is not fair, others say the teen NOT competing is discriminatory. Wondered what the thoughts of people closer to the subject would be.

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/transgender-texas-teen-wins-regional-wrestling-title-in-controversial-fashion-210305943.html

From: Swapgirl , 86 months, post #2
I haven't looked much into this story, but I don't think a FtM teenager should be able to compete against girls while he's taking testosterone. Testosterone builds muscle, and that gives this guy an unfair advantage against girls, and could even put the girls he's competing against in danger. I say this as a transwoman, by the way... it's not about having an issue with his transition for me, but the fact that, yes, having someone with large amounts of testosterone circulating in their blood competing against girls who don't in a sport like wrestling is unfair and unsafe.

The article mentions that he would rather compete against boys; I think that's a much better option, but it sounds like his wrestling league won't allow that. It would suck for him to have to abandon a sport he loves, but unless the league changes its rules to let him compete against boys, I don't relaly see another option.

From: Swapgirl , 86 months, post #3
It reminds me of the Fallon Fox controversy from a couple of years ago... except, in that case, it was a transwoman who wanted to compete against biological women. In that case, Fox had been on hormones for a couple of years, so she would have lost a lot of muscle mass and bone density, and thus would have lost a lot of the advantage she would have had against biological women. I don't know enough about mixed martial arts or physiology to know if she should have been able to compete against women, but I sispect she didn't have nearly the competitive advantage that many people thought.

In both cases, I think people get hung up on the idea of a boy competing against girls or someone born male competing against women and don't think enough about the actual effect that hormones have on the body. I think these questions need to be approched on a case-by-case and sport-by-sport basis, and need to be approached scientifically, not emotionally or politically.

From: guest (guest) , 86 months, post #4
I think the issue is mainly on the use of testosterone rather than an issue of gender. The regulations are what causing the problem here since it pretty much forces Beggs to compete in the tournament while taking testosterone.

If the regulations took into the account of possible early transgender teens, then Beggs would have competed in the male tournament. The associations aren't really at fault since the conventional regulations are rooted before the increase acceptance of transgender individuals.

This is a case of compromise at the cost of one of the parties involve.

Either Beggs stop taking testosterone to compete or the tournament has to change it's regulations with the transgender minority in mind.

My personal opinion would be taking drugs to compete is not fair by default. Pursuing your dreams has prices to pay and for some, the sacrifice is much harder like in Begg's case. It really sucks but maybe in the future, with the increase of these problem will cause an awareness for a need of regulation change.

From: guest (Guest) , 86 months, post #5
I once heard an interesting perspective on girls and boys being separated in sports. Please correct me if I'm wrong
This guy said gender had no bearing but rather weight classes. He might have been referring to wrestling, track & field or even boxing. His argument boiled down to: it's less about gender and more about physically but it's just easier to divide along gender lines

From: guest (KJ) , 86 months, post #6
There was a story not too long ago about a M to F who was winning all races with other females in a High School or College......Well duh......Yes "she" has an unfair advantage, she has the bone structure of a male. Narrower pelvis, etc....

From: guest (KJ) , 86 months, post #7
Races in track and field

From: Polover , 86 months, post #8
This thread is still here and has gone well so far! I appreciate the perspectives. I also feel like the testosterone just kind of does it in? A lot of people in the comments were noting the irony "so a male takes PEDs, it's a illegal and a disgrace but a female takes PEDs and its all fine". Obviously a little more nuanced since they are in-between at the moment but the point can't be completely dismissed.

From: guest , 86 months, post #9
Certainly this raises the question of "if we separate boys and girls (or mens and womens) sports what is the purpose and how do we determine male vs. female." AFAIK it used to be to be fair so that people competed with others of similar physiology. Well, if we now say that that doesn't determine male or female, it makes sense that the whole notion of what is a male and what is a female in sports needs to be re-evaluated. Otherwise, the "fairness" that cause the sports to be separated has been lost and the whole gender thing becomes moot -- just have one competition.

From: guest (vup) , 86 months, post #10
There was a girl who was in a league (public schools do collectively comprise sports leagues just as colleges do) where there were no other girls wrestling, much less female wrestling teams. They had her wrestle boys on their team. She had a pretty good record of winning. I don't recall that it was championship level but it was competitive.

The associations aren't really at fault since the conventional regulations are rooted before the increase[d acceptance of transgender individuals.

I disagree. The associations make the rules and can not only change them, they do all the time. Mind you, usually not mid-season...

...and what KJ said is correct: having been a man would have given Fallon Fox an advantage even with added estrogen and/or lowered testosterone. MtF transistions do work more convincingly if started earlier because the changes in bone structure that occur after puberty can not be undone so they must be prevented in the first place (sorry it that offends. I'm just speaking in terms of bone structure.) But FtM transitions can be done later in life and still produce completely convincing results.

And yes, it is hypocritical to insist that only you get to take performance enhancing drugs (which is what steroids/male hormones are) but nobody else does. You can't go around insisting your situation should be societally normalized but that you also get to be a special snowflake.

As an aside, there was a Spanish Olympian who tested for having an extra Y chromosome along with her two X chromosomes. In the development of the bone structure and glandular activity and other anatomical aspects unique to physical gender the Y chromosome is essentially ignored when there's a second X. She hadn't even known about it when the tests came back. She was kicked out and banned for "being a man" competing with the women. She was pretty devastated.

From: guest , 86 months, post #11

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

From: guest (guest) , 86 months, post #12
@vup

"The associations aren't really at fault since the conventional regulations are rooted before the increased acceptance of transgender individuals."

Within the context of this situation, people shouldn't be antagonizing the associations because like you said, It ain't gonna change with a snap. That's why I said that.
I think my post was meant to be read as a whole.

People will not care enough to create a problem for these association to solve. Especially about a small time piece on a some transgender controversy. Problems are always solved when it piles into a shit storm, sadly that's how the world is heading towards and this piece is going to either be the kickstarter or another addition to any movement towards change.

From: guest (vup) , 86 months, post #13
My point wasn't that we should blame the rule-makers for not having foreseen this sort of controversy, but rather that they can easily change the rules, they just tend not to do so mid-season for the sake of fairness.

Also, you're right. Sometimes you need to create a shitstorm to get certain people to make changes. I wouldn't use the word antagonize but when somebody mobilizes people, it does--by a great amount--improve the chances of getting change.

While there are liberals in Texas, what I think would be a driver to change (of the rules, if it's gonna happen in this situation), is that politics makes strange bedfellows. While some liberals might say this is an issue of recognizing people's gender identity, people of any political stripe would agree that for the sake of fairness and perhaps safety that you shouldn't allow someone special privilege to take performance enhancing drugs.

I don't know if Beggs is a junior or senior and if he doesn't come back next year the controversy might go away, but lawsuits tend to require less "shitstorm" to elicit change than activism does. Given the opportunity to avoid paying for lawyers and get to please pretty much everyone, school districts tend to cave. Of course, pride tends to make certain people intransigent regardless.

Also, I vaguely remember Caster Semanya but I was probably thinking of this woman .

From: guest (guesty) , 86 months, post #14
should not be allowed ...all the real girls who lost who were screwed over by a greedy prick cheating to win...essentially on steroids...sick of the Liberal bullying ...tg should have their own divison...this kid is an asshole and so are his/her parents

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