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From: Polover
, 86 months, post #1 |
I feel like this board does tackle real-world issues sometimes but
again, apologize if this is crossing the line; I've had an
innocent-intentioned thread deleted before.
I thought it would be interesting to get this community's opinion
on this news article. A FTM transitioning teen is being
questioned/investigated for competing in girl's wrestling while
taking testosterone as a part of transitional therapy. Some say the
teen competing is not fair, others say the teen NOT competing is
discriminatory. Wondered what the thoughts of people closer to the
subject would be.
https://sports.yahoo.com/news/transgender-texas-teen-wins-regional-wrestling-title-in-controversial-fashion-210305943.html
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From: Swapgirl
, 86 months, post #2 |
I haven't looked much into this story, but I don't think a FtM
teenager should be able to compete against girls while he's taking
testosterone. Testosterone builds muscle, and that gives this guy
an unfair advantage against girls, and could even put the girls
he's competing against in danger. I say this as a transwoman, by
the way... it's not about having an issue with his transition for
me, but the fact that, yes, having someone with large amounts of
testosterone circulating in their blood competing against girls who
don't in a sport like wrestling is unfair and unsafe.
The article mentions that he would rather compete against boys; I
think that's a much better option, but it sounds like his wrestling
league won't allow that. It would suck for him to have to abandon a
sport he loves, but unless the league changes its rules to let him
compete against boys, I don't relaly see another option.
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From: Swapgirl
, 86 months, post #3 |
It reminds me of the Fallon Fox controversy from a couple of years
ago... except, in that case, it was a transwoman who wanted to
compete against biological women. In that case, Fox had been on
hormones for a couple of years, so she would have lost a lot of
muscle mass and bone density, and thus would have lost a lot of the
advantage she would have had against biological women. I don't know
enough about mixed martial arts or physiology to know if she should
have been able to compete against women, but I sispect she didn't
have nearly the competitive advantage that many people thought.
In both cases, I think people get hung up on the idea of a boy
competing against girls or someone born male competing against
women and don't think enough about the actual effect that hormones
have on the body. I think these questions need to be approched on a
case-by-case and sport-by-sport basis, and need to be approached
scientifically, not emotionally or politically.
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From: guest (guest)
, 86 months, post #4 |
I think the issue is mainly on the use of testosterone rather than
an issue of gender. The regulations are what causing the problem
here since it pretty much forces Beggs to compete in the tournament
while taking testosterone.
If the regulations took into the account of possible early
transgender teens, then Beggs would have competed in the male
tournament. The associations aren't really at fault since the
conventional regulations are rooted before the increase acceptance
of transgender individuals.
This is a case of compromise at the cost of one of the parties
involve.
Either Beggs stop taking testosterone to compete or the tournament
has to change it's regulations with the transgender minority in
mind.
My personal opinion would be taking drugs to compete is not fair by
default. Pursuing your dreams has prices to pay and for some, the
sacrifice is much harder like in Begg's case. It really sucks but
maybe in the future, with the increase of these problem will cause
an awareness for a need of regulation change.
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From: guest (Guest)
, 86 months, post #5 |
I once heard an interesting perspective on girls and boys being
separated in sports. Please correct me if I'm wrong
This guy said gender had no bearing but rather weight classes. He
might have been referring to wrestling, track & field or even
boxing. His argument boiled down to: it's less about gender and
more about physically but it's just easier to divide along gender
lines
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From: guest (KJ)
, 86 months, post #6 |
There was a story not too long ago about a M to F who was winning
all races with other females in a High School or College......Well
duh......Yes "she" has an unfair advantage, she has the bone
structure of a male. Narrower pelvis, etc....
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From: guest (KJ)
, 86 months, post #7 |
Races in track and field
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From: Polover
, 86 months, post #8 |
This thread is still here and has gone well so far! I appreciate
the perspectives. I also feel like the testosterone just kind of
does it in? A lot of people in the comments were noting the irony
"so a male takes PEDs, it's a illegal and a disgrace but a female
takes PEDs and its all fine". Obviously a little more nuanced since
they are in-between at the moment but the point can't be completely
dismissed.
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From: guest
, 86 months, post #9 |
Certainly this raises the question of "if we separate boys and
girls (or mens and womens) sports what is the purpose and how do we
determine male vs. female." AFAIK it used to be to be fair so that
people competed with others of similar physiology. Well, if we now
say that that doesn't determine male or female, it makes sense that
the whole notion of what is a male and what is a female in sports
needs to be re-evaluated. Otherwise, the "fairness" that cause the
sports to be separated has been lost and the whole gender thing
becomes moot -- just have one competition.
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From: guest (vup)
, 86 months, post #10 |
There was a girl who was in a league (public schools do
collectively comprise sports leagues just as colleges do) where
there were no other girls wrestling, much less female wrestling
teams. They had her wrestle boys on their team. She had a pretty
good record of winning. I don't recall that it was championship
level but it was competitive.
The associations aren't really at fault since the conventional
regulations are rooted before the increase[d acceptance of
transgender individuals.
I disagree. The associations make the rules and can not only change
them, they do all the time. Mind you, usually not mid-season...
...and what KJ said is correct: having been a man would have given
Fallon Fox an advantage even with added estrogen and/or lowered
testosterone. MtF transistions do work more convincingly if started
earlier because the changes in bone structure that occur after
puberty can not be undone so they must be prevented in the first
place (sorry it that offends. I'm just speaking in terms of bone
structure.) But FtM transitions can be done later in life and still
produce completely convincing results.
And yes, it is hypocritical to insist that only you get to take
performance enhancing drugs (which is what steroids/male hormones
are) but nobody else does. You can't go around insisting your
situation should be societally normalized but that you also get to
be a special snowflake.
As an aside, there was a Spanish Olympian who tested for having an
extra Y chromosome along with her two X chromosomes. In the
development of the bone structure and glandular activity and other
anatomical aspects unique to physical gender the Y chromosome is
essentially ignored when there's a second X. She hadn't even known
about it when the tests came back. She was kicked out and banned
for "being a man" competing with the women. She was pretty
devastated.
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From: guest
, 86 months, post #11 |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya
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From: guest (guest)
, 86 months, post #12 |
@vup
"The associations aren't really at fault since the conventional
regulations are rooted before the increased acceptance of
transgender individuals."
Within the context of this situation, people shouldn't be
antagonizing the associations because like you said, It ain't gonna
change with a snap. That's why I said that.
I think my post was meant to be read as a whole.
People will not care enough to create a problem for these
association to solve. Especially about a small time piece on a some
transgender controversy. Problems are always solved when it piles
into a shit storm, sadly that's how the world is heading towards
and this piece is going to either be the kickstarter or another
addition to any movement towards change.
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From: guest (vup)
, 86 months, post #13 |
My point wasn't that we should blame the rule-makers for not having
foreseen this sort of controversy, but rather that they can
easily change the rules, they just tend not to do so mid-season
for the sake of fairness.
Also, you're right. Sometimes you need to create a shitstorm to get
certain people to make changes. I wouldn't use the word antagonize
but when somebody mobilizes people, it does--by a great
amount--improve the chances of getting change.
While there are liberals in Texas, what I think would be a driver
to change (of the rules, if it's gonna happen in this situation),
is that politics makes strange bedfellows. While some liberals
might say this is an issue of recognizing people's gender identity,
people of any political stripe would agree that for the sake of
fairness and perhaps safety that you shouldn't allow someone
special privilege to take performance enhancing drugs.
I don't know if Beggs is a junior or senior and if he doesn't come
back next year the controversy might go away, but lawsuits tend to
require less "shitstorm" to elicit change than activism does. Given
the opportunity to avoid paying for lawyers and get to please
pretty much everyone, school districts tend to cave. Of course,
pride tends to make certain people intransigent regardless.
Also, I vaguely remember Caster Semanya but I was probably thinking
of this woman
.
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From: guest (guesty)
, 86 months, post #14 |
should not be allowed ...all the real girls who lost who were
screwed over by a greedy prick cheating to win...essentially on
steroids...sick of the Liberal bullying ...tg should have their own
divison...this kid is an asshole and so are his/her parents
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