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Is body swapping the ultimate violation of privacy?
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From: guest (Bud) , 90 months, post #1

Is body swapping the ultimate violation of privacy? I would say yes. Because someone would have total and complete access to your body and life. They would also be able to see you naked and touch you any time they want. Another violation of privacy would be is that the person would be able to spread your "seed" if you were a guy and swapped with a woman. Would this be a worry or deal breaker for you or is it just a sacrifice you would have to make?

From: guest , 90 months, post #2

No it isn't. Technically that would be possession, and maybe mind control to some extent

And it depends on how much they have access to your mind when they're in your body. If they can't access memories, they would only appear to be 'you', and even that would certainly be challenged by society at some point. Seeing one's body naked is only seen as a vulnerability because of how we formed our culture. You can basically take 'fresh' minds and form a society where you don't even introduce clothing as a social utility, as opposed to survivalist measures, but all that would be 'weird', right?

Like body swapping.

From: cj , 90 months, post #3

I would say that body swapping could certainly be AN invasion of privacy, though not the "ultimate" one.

I'm going to have to agree with the guest poster above... for the most part. IMO, the ultimate invasion of privacy might be "inactive possession" (passenger in your head), where you are unaware that a voyeur is there with you... and where the passenger can read your mind / thoughts as well as share your feelings and emotions, plus has the ability to influence your actions. In this case you could be manipulated to do more revealing things, and you would have no freedom from being observed, even in your own thoughts. And you would have no idea that someone is watching or using / manipulating you.

I'm thinking that not knowing that you're being spied upon would be worse (just slightly) than being stuck as a passenger while someone else controlled your body ("active" possession).

From: barackobrahma , 90 months, post #4

Someone doesn't need to be possessed to have it's actions influenced/directed... we live on the internet era. We have a third hemisphere brain. So, why is so scary thinking that right now we could have being manipulated?

Recommendation systems exists to influence your thoughts. And, as it is widely known, any mediocre hacker can track your moves in the internet... and even if you use protection, someone has a mean to disable it.

It is just non-fiction, non-magical... its real life. So, there are no "wow" effect... it's crude, raw, and doesn't keep up with our expectations.

From: cj , 90 months, post #5

I think I'm confused on where you were going with that barackobrahma. Are you suggesting that the internet is more violative of privacy than someone inside your own head?

From: barackobrahma , 90 months, post #6

No... what I'm saying is that somehow, computers, internet and newer technologies allows someone inside your head. And we wont even perceive when or how, unless is something big and it is too late.

About what Im talking about: https://www.cnet.com/news/google-glass-and-the-third-half-of-your-brain/

Funny thing... someone hacked a calendar from a businessman and put in his dailies a new meeting. The guy only discovered about it after a few minutes the meeting was supposed to begin, since no one came. The person that was suppose to meet him was... himself... a small prank.
If you analyse it, the businessman were manipulated in doing something, because his memory, that isn't contained just inside his brain anymore (he uses a electronic calendar to keep up with his stuff), were tapped.

On another approach, most of what makes us.. us, isn't possible, for us, to be put into words. Even mentally. But it is possible to grasp it just by tracking your online live.You dont need to voice out that you dislike some candidate... just by not going to its pro pages, or going to the other candidate pro pages, it is possible to get that. Our online metadata usually tells more about ourselves than a close friend could know.

From: guest (Ultimate) , 90 months, post #7

@Bud, I'd say it depends. If it is a willing body swap, then you are allowing someone to have access to your body, and thus there is no expectation of privacy. If it is involuntary, then whether it is the 'ultimate' form of privacy invasion depends on what you consider private, and how that compares to other things that were mentioned, like someone rummaging around in your mind without your permission.

For some of us body swap lovers, swapping with someone could be an ultimate form of adventure.

From: Forestier , 90 months, post #8

I agree with guest 2 and cj: the real you is your thoughts, not your body.

From: cj , 90 months, post #9

Thanks barackobrahma, I'll have to chew on that for a awhile. I get what you're saying now, and I do know how anti-private the online and retail and social world is today, and with your medical, financial, and other information online as well. I still think that all the data you leave out there will fall a bit short of the level of intrusion of having someone inside your head such as in a possession... but I'm too tired to give it a fair assessment at the moment. :-)

From: guest (Bud) , 90 months, post #10

So it's not a violation of privacy for a woman body swapping with you(if you're a guy) and going out and knocking up a woman and then making you an unexpected father? That is your sperm, not that woman's sperm. That's a violation of privacy if you ask me.
Or what if you did bad stuff as that woman like you took pics of her in just panties and heels and were topless in the pics and then posted them on instagram? That's not a violation of privacy?

From: cj , 90 months, post #11

"So it's not a violation of privacy for a woman body swapping with you(if you're a guy) and going out and knocking up a woman and then making you an unexpected father? ... Or what if you did bad stuff as that woman like you took pics of her in just panties and heels and were topless in the pics and then posted them on instagram?"

It's a violation alright (unless you had already addressed that issue with her prior to the events/attempts),... just not necessarily of privacy.

From Merriam-Webster:
Definition of privacy
1
a : the quality or state of being apart from company or observation : seclusion
b : freedom from unauthorized intrusion (one's right to privacy)
2
archaic : a place of seclusion
3
a : secrecy
b : a private matter : secret

From: guest (Bud) , 90 months, post #12

So CJ, would you feel violated then?

From: guest (leon) , 90 months, post #13

Hey Bud (guest2 here), I think you're confusing what privacy means, and it seems that you're thinking of a swap where the original occupants have to deal with the consequences of their partners actions when they return to their own body. You can apply that same direction of thought to a crime committed by the person in your body, implanting your fingerprints on a crime scene, or draining your bank account with your identity, or whatever else that might mess up your life. And I think it's fair to mention that on the contrary, it's possible they can improve your life, taking risks that actually pay off, and leave you with a better life that you couldn't dare to achieve on your own.

And the seed/sperm thing you keep mentioning (and we can't just consider it from one point of view, so you have to include pregnancy in your argument which is undeniably a heavier burden ) implies you're thinking of a temporary swap, again, having that person deal with the aftermath of ones actions. What if it was permanent, and they had to live a new life, having to make their own decisions regardless of her or his past? Do you think it'd be a violation still?

I think it's important to mention these fantasy-concepts are what they are, fantasies. Unless we come to a point in which they can be readily applied in the world we're living in, I think it's pointless, and even ridiculous for us, here, to try to figure out a basis for what constitutes as "ethical body swapping."

From: cj , 90 months, post #14

"CJ, would you feel violated then?"

If the swap (or even a swap-appearing-double-transformation) is planned and mutual, many things will be discussed, and trust will be a requirement. I know that there would be some discomfort just in having someone else try to "be" me... even if the swap was permanent, planned, and agreed upon. So there may be moments there where I feel violated or betrayed. If the swap is temporary, more care would need to be taken to prevent such things, but I'm sure there will still be some moments or decisions... just as we ourselves make poor decisions that we later regret while we're still in our own skins. But as for the privacy concerns, it was my decision to surrender certain, necessary, private details and information so that the other person could occupy my body / my place in the world, so any violations would likely NOT be about privacy.

Now, if the swap is unplanned, unwanted, or worse - if I'm possessed or body-hopped... then yeah, I'm going to feel very much violated. Not only that, but with each decision that my body makes under its new control -- if I disagree with that choice, and especially if that choice creates consequences that I don't want, I will be (not just feel) violated. These are things that have been forced on me against my will. As for the privacy aspect... well, if they can't read my mind or memories, their invasion of my privacy will be limited, but just the act of being in control of my body will grant them the ability and access to discover many things that I'd rather keep to myself, so each private thing they uncover without my consent would be a violation of my privacy.

"I think it's pointless, and even ridiculous for us, here, to try to figure out a basis for what constitutes as "ethical body swapping.""

Probably. However, it is certainly an interesting discussion to have here... something to think about. :-)

From: guest (vup) , 90 months, post #15

I think this is a fascinating discussion, lots of people have made some excellent points but I try to stay out of them b/c sometimes I seem to close them off :-P

But on the whole, I'm with Bud on this one.

A non-consensual "taking over of" someone else's body in any form--be it possession, swap or whatever--truly is a severe violation of someone's rights. Whether or not it's the ultimate one is--to me--something of a semantic argument rather than an ethical one.

And whether or not there are worse violations of rights or privacy in no way makes a wrong "okay" or "no big deal". And, yes, it's a theoretical discussion. A thought experiment, in a way. But good science fiction (and other forms of fiction) does(do) the same. It's there to help us come to a better understanding of real world ethics/morals and the ramifications that our actions and decisions have in this world on others be they individuals or society itself.

Well, I'm clearly no fun. Anyway, I have some other thoughts here but I'll just shut up now.

Happy transforming, peeps!

From: guest (vup) , 90 months, post #16

Okay, cj. What you said in post #14 pretty much nailed it. You beat me to the punch. But, yeah, what you said.

From: cj , 90 months, post #17

"whether or not there are worse violations of rights or privacy in no way makes a wrong "okay" or "no big deal"."

Indeed. And now that you mention that... perhaps that's what leon was trying to say, and I missed the point.

Well said on the rest vup, so don't be shy or think you're not fun. Just because your reflection in the mirror doesn't make you laugh, doesn't mean we won't laugh at you... I mean with/for you. :-)

From: guest , 90 months, post #18

Mind reading is the ultimate invasion of privacy, followed maybe by aurora reading (how dare you cast detect evil, it's none of your beeswax if I'm evil or not)

People share each other's bodies all the time, what does it matter if they touch it with their hands or with mine? They are welcome to operate the machine I live in, it is hardly different to their own.

As for identity theft, people that look a bit like me could get away with that anyway.

In summary, if anyone wants To swap my body, go for it, it's what's in my head and in my heart that matters not my organs or skin.

From: guest (Bluenote) , 90 months, post #19

Just to add another wrinkle to this discussion, it sounds like a property rights issue. If a body swap was mutually agreed to then there should no problem, morally or ethically. In the case of possession it's a clear cut case of theft. Same for a body swap that was not mutually agreed upon (unless it occurred by falling down stairs or some other random method that neither party had agreed to, and even there if one party resists remediation then we can properly call it theft).

Privacy rights are tricky. One can go to the dictionary, of course, to find A definition (and which dictionary will be the definitive definition, hmm?), but bottom line it's a judgement call on the part of each individual. Some folks don't mind that their lives are an open book (you see them on Facebook all the time!). Others take umbrage at the slightest thing. Fact: unless you shut down the internet, totally, people have very little "privacy". At least in countries that support the internet, which is most of them.

You want privacy? Find a cave.

Is mind reading a privacy violation? Absolutely. So is reading someone's diary, or looking them up on the internet.To attain any sort of privacy it has to be built into the culture. In other words, people have to voluntarily grant one another privacy. This is why culture is the enemy of any who wish to control a people and is always attacked by those in power (sorry to get political).

From: guest (Bud) , 90 months, post #20

I think when it comes to sex, it would be a huge violation of privacy if you did anything sexual without the permission of the person you swapped with. In a way, wouldn't it be rape? If you are a guy and you swap with a woman, and you go out and screw a guy, aren't you violating that woman by having a male "be in you"?

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