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From: guest (guest2)
, 91 months, post #21 |
I never really cared for her stuff but I appreciate that she would
like to earn some income for her efforts.
What she should be doing is leaving her past stuff free to build a
new audience and appease the old audience. Closing off everything
seems like it's gonna backfire, but then again her she might have a
dedicated fanbase that'll buy up everything she makes.
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From: guest (guest1)
, 91 months, post #22 |
make money through advertising not pay to view...only way I'm
paying is if she's getting naked
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From: cj
, 91 months, post #23 |
I've been watching this thread, and looking back at previous
threads where Wren Adams is discussed.
I get that many have feelings about the quality of her work, or
that she's not making videos that really appeal to you... and that
you feel slighted by her moving all of her older content behind a
paywall. All of this is fine, and this is one of the places to
discuss such things.
But we also need to try to be polite, courteous, and show some
respect. Our tone when it comes to Wren has been getting a bit
hostile. Just prior to her moving the content behind a paywall,
there was mention that Wren herself felt "a toxic sense of entitlement and weird hate"... "and I haven't
felt very much support from people."
If you look as her YouTube channel, it appears that she's trying to
make something more with here video productions, rather than just
niche content for free, and we should applaud that. Just like any
FictionMania author or DeviantArt-ist... if you've got something
people will pay for, you should go for it.
Chris J, who stated a couple months back that they were helping
Wren with this monetization of Wren's videos, stopped back (post
16) and let us know a bit more, such as the eventuality of previews
(possibly), as was suggested in this thread. I'm glad that they are
still willing to engage with us here.
They are just getting going in building a business out of Wren's
videos... regardless of how we feel about the quality of her
production, her story, or the content and TF content (or type of
TF), we should be careful not to be venomous in our comments. We
should be patient with her and her crew as they endeavor to find
the right mix of free, cheap, and paid content... and free previews
(we expect the same from major Hollywood productions, if we're
going to plunk down cash).
If we want to continue positive dialog with Wren and co., we are
going to have refrain from being poison or even a bitter taste. We
can be critical of her work, we can offer suggestions... things
we've done over the years for her and others. If you have
grievances with her, please use the contact info for her first -
then discuss what happened here - but remember that we will not
allow personal attacks... stick to the facts and your own feelings.
I'd hate to see us lose a video creator because we chose to drive
her away, where she in turn maybe chooses to pull her content. And
it seems that that might be happening. We have to also remember,
that just because we (as an individual) didn't like something about
a video (or even most of a producer's videos), that there isn't
another among us who will find the value in that same content.
So please, keep all of this in mind as this discussion continues.
And as always, do your best to be polite, courteous, and respectful
in your posts here, especially if they involve or are about a
specific person or group. Thank you.
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From: guest (SwitchHitter)
, 91 months, post #24 |
Well said CJ. Couldn't agree more.
I never donated to her Patreon or anything so I don't know how that
was all sorted about but I do remember her speaking out on the last
thread about her and, like you mentioned, her bringing up the
"toxic sense of entitlement and weird hate." I remember feeling so
bad for her because the way she was talking sounded very much how I
felt and totally for where she was coming from.
As a capper, it's something I also experience on a regular basis.
Sometimes I grow so frustrated by it that I just want to throw in
the towel myself. I almost did a few weeks back because I was so
done with all the negativity and rudeness people would throw at me
for something that I was doing for free and in my spare time. It
put me in a real dark place.
I haven't quit (yet) cause I still enjoy capping but it's
absolutely mind boggling how some people think they can get away
with treating us this way. Why chase away the person who is giving
you something that you love? People need to remember that behind
the videos, caps, and stories there is a human being there working
really, really hard.
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From: guest (passerby)
, 91 months, post #25 |
I remember years ago commenting to her (when she visited) that she
was doing this to make money - which is totally fine - to which she
was extremely offended and went off on how it was all about her
passion.
I guess I was right.
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From: Polover
, 91 months, post #26 |
cj I think you're too nice/forgiving. Sure, no need to be outright
insulting but the high criticism neither without cause or
undeserved. People have been giving Wren a chance FOR YEARS she
didn't show up yesterday. And from her very origins her decisions
have ranged from a little odd to arguably nefarious; her latest
stunt is downright nefarious. Not many are complaining about the
very idea of her trying to get money but rather the terrible,
bridge-burning way she's going about it. If I slapped you in the
face and then told you to give me a dollar would you be like "Well,
can't fault you trying to make money"? Exaggeration, sure, but the
principle still applies.
You're telling other people to be patient when she's not even being
patient with her own business model! I'd be willing to bet that her
Patreon would've surely grown if she actually stuck to it for a
minute and started putting out videos of trustworthy quality and
consistency. I, myself have looming over her for a while with my
pocketbook because I've always thought she was rather mediocre as a
creator but had potential and was waiting to see if her potential
would ever be realized for me to it is worthwhile to support her.
Now, I couldn't give a flying fudge because she's trying to force
get-money-quick schemes to work off of low talent. She needs to
quit feeling entitled to large/significant sums of money right off
the bat when her portfolio isn't that great to a lot of people. It
is very common for entrepreneurs to start off working in the red to
build an audience and strengthen relationships with their base; why
is she special? And I've also pointed out numerous times that her
marketing has just been outright poor. Anyone and a little savvy to
the field would agree; she just hasn't been making decision to
achieve maximum exposure.
Her misfortunes and target of criticism/animosity is her own doing.
No one should feel sorry for her. She needs to suck it up, quit
whining, and keep it pushing or GTFO. And It's not like she was
putting out that much content for her to be terribly missed.
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From: guest (Silhouette)
, 91 months, post #27 |
Wren had maybe one video that I thought was ok, the rest were
pretty "meh". Personally can't understand the outrage though when
it sounds like no money was taken. Even those who bought stuff on
Youtube thinking it was new content were offered refunds.
Overall, I'll just be glad when all this drama finally blows over.
Wren really hasn't had much of a part in the TF/TG community for
quite awhile now.
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From: cj
, 91 months, post #28 |
Polover -- Yes, Wren actually communicating some outline of a plan,
letting us know that she's going to have previews and/or some free
content, and an idea of how long we will have to wait while she
gets that all set up, would certainly go a LONG way towards fending
off what does indeed feel like a slap in the face to any who are
(or were) fans.
Normally, one would do that before, or at least at the same time
as, pulling all the content... or restricting it.
Certainly there are better ways to go about such things.
And I see that you have understood my primary concern.
As for the lopsided scales. I have little (if any) influence on how
Wren and company act, etc. But I do have a little influence here -
regardless of how others act, we should always try to act with
respect and civility... we don't have to be weak or forgiving... or
even nice or kind. Just be civil / avoid being hostile.
Yes, I probably am too forgiving and too nice at times... but as a
moderator, sometimes you need to try to be (and encourage) those
things.
Thanks Polover.
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From: Lazy
, 91 months, post #29 |
If she's charging without doing some sort of risque things i don't
see the point of watching her anymore. Shame the i wrote a script
for her that she never did .
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From: Lazy
, 91 months, post #30 |
and i left her a suggestion for previews on her youtube and will
try to post something to her on her personal facebook
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From: greendoubleaught
, 91 months, post #31 |
Polover: You said, "If I slapped you in the face and then told you
to give me a dollar would you be like "Well, can't fault you trying
to make money"? Exaggeration, sure, but the principle still
applies.
I almost never post here, but I can't let that stand. In no
universe is "stops giving you free porn" equivalent to "slaps you
in the face." I can't imagine what would possess you or anyone else
to make that equivalency. You were getting something for free. If
you didn't like it, that's fine; if you don't want to pay for it,
that's fine too. It's her business model, and she will succeed or
fail on her merits. It is not the same as personally assaulting
you, for a person to say, "Look, I've put lots of hours into this,
and I'd like to get paid." The exaggeration only highlights the
poisonous sense of entitlement CJ was talking about.
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From: guest (TheSwitcher)
, 91 months, post #32 |
Anyone actually converted any videos they can share? thanks in
advance
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From: guest (chrisj)
, 91 months, post #33 |
Please close down this thread and any similar threads in order to
prevent illegal digital piracy.
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From: Polover
, 91 months, post #34 |
@chrisj No one has yet provide any illegally sourced material
within this thread. Just because someone asks doesn't necessarily
mean someone is going to do it and there are moderators such as cj
who take down such INDIVIDUAL posts immediately in order to keep
the overall thread open for discussion while maintaining legality.
I would hope the moderators do not give in to this thinly veiled
request for censorship (so long as the thread does not turn into a
sea of ad-hominems)
@greendoubleaught I very blatantly said immediately after that is
was an exaggeration. My point was to highlight bad business
practice (logic) not imply she's some kind of monster (emotion).
I'm saying having a business where I slap people in the face and
then ask them for money is not a good business and worthy of high
criticism. Just as putting out a bunch of mediocre content as free
for years, making a Patreon to try to start earning money, reach
the goal and still not produce a video as promised in said Patreon,
suddenly shut down the Patreon entirely, and then without notice
put all content, past and present, behind an upfront paywall, is
also not a good business and worthy of high criticism.
I also blatantly said I'm don't care about the very idea of her
trying to get money, I care about the method she's going about it.
I also said I was even considering contributing to her further down
the line before she pulled this crap. Please read someone's post
fully before calling them out.
|
From: guest (chrisj)
, 91 months, post #35 |
BART
“Wow that's really stupid, her videos weren't that great anyway.”
You’re not a fan. Others are. That’s okay.
LISA LEWIS
“This just might be Wren's demise.”
She is doing better than ever…I really don’t think that some angry
people online, or some lost subscribers are going to keep her up at
night.
THAT GUY YEAH
“nevermind the paywall she made so the video not available in my
country like really”
You speak as if you were intentionally slighted. YouTube currently
requires countries to be input manually, one by one, for paid
content. If you tell me what country you are in, I will forward it
over, and see if it’s possible to include your country of residence
in existing and upcoming videos.
GUEST1
“make money through advertising not pay to view”
That has been tried. The content is too niche to justify our
production and time expenses if we're to continue working off
advertising revenue alone.
POLOVER
“People have been giving Wren a chance FOR YEARS she didn't show up
yesterday.”
What people have been giving her a chance? And a chance to, or for
what? She didn’t show up where?
“her latest stunt is downright nefarious”
Full Definition of nefarious as defined by Merriam-Webster:
flagrantly wicked or impious : evil.
Okay…what?
“You're telling other people to be patient when she's not even
being patient with her own business model! I'd be willing to bet
that her Patreon would've surely grown if she actually stuck to it
for a minute and started putting out videos of trustworthy quality
and consistency.”
The Patreon was axed mostly because of the inequitable way the
production costs of the videos were being unfairly and
disproportionally distributed to her biggest fans. However, we’ve
consulted with official, certified YouTube experts who have
analyzed her channel’s data, and their advice has led us to where
we are currently. Your angry, presumably unqualified conjecture and
criticism is unfortunately of little to no use to us.
“I, myself have looming over her for a while with my pocketbook
because I've always thought she was rather mediocre as a creator
but had potential and was waiting to see if her potential would
ever be realized for me to it is worthwhile to support her. Now, I
couldn't give a flying fudge because she's trying to force
get-money-quick schemes to work off of low talent. She needs to
quit feeling entitled to large/significant sums of money right off
the bat when her portfolio isn't that great to a lot of people.”
You’re just one person, and your opinion, specifically, holds no
special weight, and is somewhat insignificant when compared to the
total scale of her audience, who you do not speak for.
“It is very common for entrepreneurs to start off working in the
red to build an audience and strengthen relationships with their
base; why is she special?”
It is even more common to offer goods or services in exchange for
money. She has literally been creating free content for years.
“And I've also pointed out numerous times that her marketing has
just been outright poor. Anyone and a little savvy to the field
would agree; she just hasn't been making decision to achieve
maximum exposure.”
Again, we’ve spoken to experts, and our decisions are being guided
by their wisdom. I’d like to point out to you, and to anyone who
might be reading this, though, how your statement yet again reveals
how you seem to believe that your opinion is universal fact and
speaks for others.
“No one should feel sorry for her. She needs to suck it up, quit
whining, and keep it pushing or GTFO.”
People can feel sorry for her if they want to. And she doesn’t have
to do anything just because you say so.
“I would hope the moderators do not give in to this thinly veiled
request for censorship”
I’ve no interest in censoring your inane rambling. I just want to
make sure that this website does not illegally facilitate, or
encourage through passivity, the theft of content which I
represent.
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From: cj
, 91 months, post #36 |
"I just want to make sure that this website does not illegally
facilitate, or encourage through passivity, the theft of
content..."
It does not. As those who frequent this site can attest to. In
fact, we're often criticized by some for having and enforcing this
policy. You can check out our Posting Guidelines (below the text
entry box), and this site's FAQ page
for further detail on our handling of such things.
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From: cj
, 91 months, post #37 |
chrisj -- I also invite you to read the Posting Guidelines in their
full. As you will be held to the same guidelines as every other
poster.
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From: guest (LOL)
, 91 months, post #38 |
This is hilarious! Way to seriously loose your cool chrisj. We get
it, Wren's on her way to super stardom now, that great, more power
to her, but why even care what's happening on a little site like
Meta?
The moderators here discourage and quickly take down any links to
copyright material, so no one here is going to try to steal your
valuable product.
And this thread has been very civil, it's not like anyone's say
that Wren's unattractive, or that she's put on a ton of weight,
which is why she hasn't even been in her own videos for a year or
that she's a terrible actresses, Everyone's just talking about how
they feel 'betrayed' that she is now charging for videos that they
had previously enjoyed for free...for years. If she wants to charge
for them, that's her business.
And if she wants to repost and charge for old videos with new
thumbnail pictures and different descriptions, WITHOUT making it
clear that they are reposts of old videos, then hey, that's just
what she's doing and people will figure it out eventually. That
doesn't really seem right to me, but it's her business if that's
what she wants to do. I haven't watched her videos in years, so I
wouldn't pay a single penny to see her entire library, but there
are a lot of people who really like her stuff and are now
disappointed, so I feel sorry for them. So just understand there's
a lot of hard feelings right now, and don't get all stressed out
about what's going on here. Wren's a big star now and doesn't need
any support from us.
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From: guest (chrisj)
, 91 months, post #39 |
Guest (LOL)
Your passive aggressive attempts to ridicule us are transparent,
and I'll not respond to the majority of your baiting.
As for the reposting of videos, the descriptions and titles are
almost identical to what they've been, and the thumbnails are
stills directly taken from the videos. All the reposted videos
explicitly state that they are compiled from previously released
videos.
CJ
Thank you for your clear and prompt response. It is much
appreciated. I took a look at the guidelines, although I'll be
taking my leave, for now. If any of you have any remaining
questions or comments, you can direct them straight to any of us,
and we'll get back to you.
Regards,
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From: guest
, 91 months, post #40 |
I think you should lock this thread CJ, I get that her work didn't
have much for the metamorphose and TF community, but that is no
reason for people to get upset. Maybe Metamorphose.org needs a
private way for people to flag content they feel is inapproprate
and let the admin sort it out behind the scenes, having it out in
the open like this is bullying.
Personally I see a lot of threads on the MSG Board I think are
misleading or unsuitable for the Metamorphose.org website, but I
wouldn't go on each one saying, that mind control, that's clothes
swapping, that voice swapping, what has that got to do with TF
fiction? But it's not my website.
So I do suggest a flagging system so people that want to rant can
do so, it's a freedom everyone should have. But let's keep it out
of sight of the people it can upset.
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