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A Female Is A Failed Male [Mature Content]
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From: guest (lily) , 115 months, post #41
@Me And Me Only Remove modern society, the differences and roles born to become even more pronounced

Yes, and no. Gender differences are both innate and learned. Some are imposed by "modern society" (by society in general).

Stay-at-home mothers and housewives are entirely the product of a wealthy society. In "primitive" or "less civilized" societies, the survival requires the labor f women.

The division of labor may be made according to the differences in physical strength -- women working at a different set of jobs then men -- but women work hard.

Submissive women are, likewise, an artifact of culture. In different societies, at different times, women have enjoyed degrees of autonomy and political power. There have been varying degrees of matriarchy, where women hold the political power either as rulers or as "gatekeepers" who confer political power, and there have been matrilineal societies where property is inherited through the female line.

The hypothesis of a woman's "natural submissiveness" is falsified by the existence of women who are not submissive. Such women are well represented in history.

It is an interesting question, though, what a sexist man would do if transformed -- against his will -- into a woman. Would she try to conform to his expectations of female behavior? Or, would she have her consciousness raised -- becoming a feminist?

I cannot think of an example from TG fiction, but I am reminded of the last scene of the movie The Watermelon Man.

From: Lady Sekhmet , 115 months, post #42
Stay-at-home mothers and housewives are entirely the product of a wealthy society.
This is not strictly true. What we would call primitive tribal societies typically have the women remaining in the village cooking and caring for the young. The vast number of human societies both ancient and modern follow this basic premise. In fact, I can think of no society where the man is considered the primary caregiver for the children. Can you?

Submissive women are, likewise, an artifact of culture.
This is not really "on topic" for a post entitled "a female is a failed male" and is in fact a rather explosive topic on its own... but lets pursue it anyway :D

First off, let's be clear here about what being socially submissive actually means (as opposed to sexually submissive which is a whole other can of worms). This isn't a case of taking orders from someone who has you under foot. It's more a case of frequently deferring to someone else rather than always arguing over a course of action while still being able to speak your mind about those things you feel strongly about. It's rather like the agreement the average taxpayer has with the government. We all deffer to our elected officials to make decisions. We do not argue about every little thing that goes on in politics, but when something unusually important pops up, we speak our mind. We can be said to be "submissive" to our government officials. It's not a derogatory term, it simply means we have better things to do than to try to lead. No group succeeds when every individual is the leader.

"natural submissiveness" is falsified by the existence of women who are not submissive.
This implies you acknowledge that non submissiveness is the exception rather than the rule. This is not surprising as no behavioral characteristic is true 100% of the time. There is also a scattering of males who prefer to be submissive but this is not representative of the gender as a whole. When speaking of "natural behavior" we are implicitly speaking of social averages. Feminists are clearly not of the submissive bent and therefor vigorously fight any such label. Because they themselves have no submissive tendency they believe this must also be true for everyone of their gender. However they do not speak for all women which is why they are given their own special label "Feminist" so we all know what to expect from them. It is because Feminists are not submissive that they become the loudest part of any discussion. Women who are perfectly happy in their roles have no cause to speak up and therefor only the Feminist position is heard, despite it being the minority opinion. Consider the opposite scenario - can you picture the submissive minority of men taking up a campaign demanding women take a strong leadership role in relationships and world politics? Of course not, it would be counter to the very idea of being submissive for them to even consider it. The same is true for the majority of submissive women.

Submissive women are, likewise, an artifact of culture.
This is true but for a surprisingly different reason than you might think. Now, this is going to come across as inflammatory but it's actually not. The "artifact of culture" is in fact akin to how wolves have become domesticated dogs. Submissive and attractive qualities in women are actually bred in by natural selection just as physically superior qualities are bred in to males. This sort of breeding tendency can be seen in virtually all species of animals and is not specific along gender lines. In some species this selective breeding has caused the female to become the large dominant gender while the male is smaller. In humans though, it is the female who is smaller and more submissive. This is a survival trait and is fundamental to the success of humanity as a species. Only recently has this process been subverted by technology.

what a sexist man would do if transformed -- against his will -- into a woman.
I would venture that this is entirely dependent on the extent of the transformation. If the transformation included the brain structure of a woman while somehow preserving his memories and identity, then one would expect the man to travel a long and confused path towards submission. Most social scientists will tell you that the vast majority of our base behavior is a result of the brains physiological makeup and therefor this transformed individual would be bombarded with feelings and emotions of a distinctly female persuasion. In time I suspect these would lead to him adopting his new found role in society. However, if it were more of a brain transplant thing I would expect him to continue to think and feel like a man but gradually take on a minimum of female behaviors to allow him to operate in society. He would no doubt be very uncomfortable with it, perhaps to the point of suicide. It seems to me that such a transformation would be the same as creating a F2M TS.

From: guest (Me And Me Only) , 115 months, post #43
Use the word "passive", instead of submissive. A dominate partner, a passive partner

From: guest (Lalola) , 115 months, post #44
Doesn't mean dominance is a stronger trait then passiveness, you could argue evil is a dominant force in the universe and good is a passive force.

This is why religions are often evil as they dominate and subjugate people, where as belief and spirituality are often passive and subdued.

Would you say a Buddhist monk is weaker then a CEO? I wouldn't personally, who says a woman has to be dominant to be better then a mail, maybe it's a mans dominating nature that makes him a failed woman. Maybe the world would be a better place without domineering men and women, maybe those traits are self destructive as a species.

Also out disregard of other life forms will probably destroy the natural balance and the circle of life will end, this cannot be blamed on natural submissiveness, only aggression and domination.

So I find the arguements in this thread crazy, but on the other hand turning a dominant CEO or oil baron into a submissive green peace loving hippy in personality would be a fetish I enjoy, if I got three wishes one of them would be to change all the bullies and bossy greedy people and leaders and other domineering people into submissive caring people, but mentally as well as physically, opening their eyes to how evil they were and making them realise how much better the world would be without them.

So I'd say my fetish is the exact opposite of the one discussed in this thread.

From: guest (lily) , 115 months, post #45
@Me and Me Only Use the word "passive", instead of submissive. A dominate partner, a passive partner

It's been a while since I read "Moons of Eden", and I don't have time to read it again, but the women aren't portrayed as passive. IIRC, the women have been modified in some way additional to the sex change, so that they go into heat periodically until they become bonded to one of the remaining men (searching the text for "brain" it appears that there is some kind of device implanted in the medullae of the transformees -- presumably this is what causes the changes in their behavior).

I did skim through "Role Over Me" and the transformed husband is explicitly submissive to her transformed wife. But it is not -- as far as I can tell -- because she is trying to conform to her sexist preconceptions about women. The change in her personality is part of the spell that changed her anatomy. In Part 4

Dale stared at his wife angrily. He resented the fact that she had simply vetoed his request out of hand, as if he had no rights at all. After all, he had done everything she had asked of him�the cooking, cleaning, washing. He even ironed her skirts and blouses so she would look the part of a young executive when she went to work. He�d become nothing more than her full-time housewife, something he had never demanded of her, yet she was treating him like a child. He was tempted to ask Sandy what gave her the right to control his life, to tell him when he could come and go, but he bit his tongue and remained silent. As much as he wanted to, he simply could not bring himself to challenge her authority.

In his anger and frustration Dale turned on his heel to carry the dished into the kitchen, but as he did a now-familiar wave of dizziness swept over him and Dale nearly dropped the dishes. He managed to maintain his balance but a cloudy, misty sensation permeated his mind, along with a feeling of fluctuation. He felt bewildered and confused, and failed to notice that Sandy�s clothes were suddenly a little looser on him, with the exception of his chest and bottom. He didn�t notice that his budding breasts had just blossomed a little more, or that his appearance was a touch more feminine than a moment before. He could not see that his bottom was slightly more rounded or that his hips flared just a touch more than a minute ago. He did pause when he was forced to stand on tiptoes to reach the dishwashing liquid on the windowsill behind the sink. He didn�t remember it being that hard to reach, and wondered why his heels had nearly lifted out of Sandy�s white canvas oxfords.

Dale was also puzzled about his lingering irritation with Sandy. For a moment he could not quite recall why he had been annoyed with her, and when he finally remembered he wondered why he had overreacted like that. After all, Sandy was running things, and rightfully so. She was far more logical and much better at these complicated plans. She was also the bread-winner of the household, and Dale reminded himself that his role was to support her and provide a clean home, tasty and nutritious meals, and anything else she needed. With that thought Dale tied an apron around his suddenly thinner waist and started doing the dishes. In a few moments he was humming softly to himself in a light, feminine manner.


FWIW "passive" is not a less-demeaning adjective than "submissive". One may choose to submit. One may commit an act of submission. To be passive is to have no agency.

When discussing roles in a sexual relationship, "passive partner" is one who never initiates, or who expresses no preferences regarding, sex acts. It carries the connotation of disinterest. This very different from "submissive partner", which describes a person who gets pleasure from being dominated. I know a professional domme who jokes that her clients are very pushy and particular about the way that they want to be dominated.

There is nothing natural about the submission of women in the cultures that gave us purdah and the seraglio. It takes effort on the part of men, and the complicity of frightened women, to impose a submissive, subservient, role on half of the human population. The model is not a peaceful and prosperous Ottoman Caliphate, where a wealthy man might keep wives and concubines -- it is what comes before the caliphate, the depredations and massacre of Boko Haram or the Taliban. Submission under threat of death not the expression of a "natural tendency".

From: guest (Me And Me Only) , 115 months, post #46
From the end of Chapter 3

"But the real crisis was psychological, not physical. All his life Dale had held an unquestioned belief in the superiority of the male of the species. Males were taller, stronger, and more aggressive. Males were the providers, the breadwinners, and the dominant partner in a marriage. They were the undisputed heads of their families, making all the major decisions�or at least having the final say in matters of importance. Women, on the other hand, were (or should be) submissive to their husbands. They were smaller, weaker, less capable, and more inclined to emotion instead of reason. Their rightful place was in the home, caring for children, keeping the home spotless, and generally supporting their men.

As a man Dale had been only too happy to accept this ideology and the benefits that went along with it, but now everything was turned upside-down. At the very least he was no longer a male, technically speaking, and with each passing day there were fewer and fewer differences between him and any "natural" female.

The problem was that Dale had truly believed in the superiority of males. It wasn�t just an act but an ingrained faith based upon what he saw were clearly defined characteristics and abilities, and he could no more deny his lifelong attitudes than he could deny his name. But now that HE was the female in his marriage his old beliefs were coming back to haunt him. If he denied his ideology now, when the shoe was on the other foot, it would be like admitting that his entire life was a lie, a sham, and that he was nothing more than an opportunist who took advantage women. By his own admission he would be nothing more than a despicable jerk.

He had avoided the crisis by telling himself he really wasn�t female; that his "condition" was only temporary; that only one part of him was female. But the previous evening had shattered those excuses. He simply couldn�t shake the image that had stared back at him from the mirror, and the girl in the looking glass had haunted his dreams that night. He was forced to admit that he was far more female than male now, which raised too many uncomfortable questions.

Dale decided to avoid the issue for the time being. He was too tired for deep thinking, and the more he considered the problem the more confused he became. When they arrived back at the house he concentrated on his mental checklist of things he had to do before they moved out to the lake. He had only two more days left at his job and Sandy wanted to move over the weekend. Dale wasn�t looking forward to the move because it meant the end of his life as he had known it and the beginning of a new life that held nothing but uncertainty for him. Whatever happened, Dale was determined to endure, but the fear of the unknown kept him tossing and turning until well after midnight, while Sandy snored soundly next to him."

���.

But am just not interested in arguing the point of how I read it or choose to read it for my enjoyment.

I am reading for enjoyment, not college credit



From: guest (lily) , 115 months, post #47
@Me and Me Only But am just not interested in arguing the point of how I read it or choose to read it for my enjoyment.

So, I ask again: What was it that you wanted to discuss when you started this thread? What kinds of comments or questions did you expect, or trying to solicit?

From: Lady Sekhmet , 115 months, post #48
@lily: Basing ones view of the real world on works of net fiction like Moons of Eden is probably part of the problem with this discussion. Additionally neither the term "passive" nor "submissive" should be considered "demeaning". These terms do not denote disinterest, they instead denote a deferment on day to day issues. Being submissive does not mean you can never be assertive when something important arises. My analogy to the relationship between tax payers and their elected officials continues to be a good example. We submit to the actions and laws these knuckleheads create but every so often we take matters into our own hands and boot them out or force them to change. In other words, being submissive is NOT the same as being powerless.

  • It takes effort on the part of men, and the complicity of frightened women, to impose a submissive, subservient, role on half of the human population.*

This statement blows my mind. It is an absolute unmitigated falsehood. Could it possibly be that in your minds eye you see a world where all women live frightened shadowy lives afraid to be themselves for fear that some male will forcefully impose his domination over her? What sort of a cold dark place do you come from where all you can see is some global nightmarish conspiracy of men against women? I think perhaps you've read too much of that net fiction, and perhaps a good deal too much of John Norman's works as well.

Just look around at the vast majority of loving couples where the woman happily defers to her man. There is no fear nor subjugation by the man. He gladly accepts the role of provider and defender and she the role of family caretaker. They each care for the other and work together to make the family unit complete. Indeed most women are quite happy to feel cared for by their man. Anyone who has had even a single close relationship has experienced this. Most men shine when they have someone they love that they can provide for and most women glow when they have someone they love they can care for and who provides for them.

I hope one day you find such a relationship Lily, be it with a man or a woman. You may find that gender based roles come more naturally than you once thought and can in fact be quite wonderful for both parties.

Remember - a female is NOT a failed male - we're both part of a team just with different parts to play.

From: guest (Me And Me Only) , 115 months, post #49
�.."So, I ask again: What was it that you wanted to discuss when you started this thread? What kinds of comments or questions did you expect, or trying to solicit?�..

From my first post

"So enjoy reading TG fiction where a male is changed into a female and in time becomes convinced they failed as a male and must go forward as females."

"Just one of my likes in TG fiction"

Was sharing/telling what I enjoy in tg fiction/fantasy. And posted how I would like to have seen more of that incorporated into one story as an example. Or how I like to look for it in others.

Very simple.


From: guest (Forestier) , 115 months, post #50
"And there have been matrilineal societies where property is inherited through the female line.".

This has no relation with power. I could have inherited property from my mother's brother, without any woman having any right over it.

"Submissive and attractive qualities in women are actually bred in by natural selection just as physically superior qualities are bred in to males."

How can it be? If I am the offspring of a leading father and of a submissive mother, how can it be that I inherited my behavorial traits only from my father? Men and women are not two different species!

From: guest (Me And Me Only) , 115 months, post #51
""Remember - a female is NOT a failed male - we're both part of a team just with different parts to play.""

Very much so.

And I like to see in fiction/fantasy genders get changed, along with those roles getting changed for them.

So kind of like what I gave in the reference just above in the story "Role Over" you have this tg storyline

A guy was raised to think women, when in the womb, were found to be lacking, they failed to make the change over from a female fetus to male, so remained female. A "failed male"

Now here he is, 25 years old, handsome, say 6' 1" tall, 230 pounds, quite muscular, hard as a rock, 8" penis, male hormones a raging.

Now by magic he is changed into a beautiful female, 5' 1" tall, 100 pounds, can barely lift a 3 year old child. Has a place where an 8" penis is to be used in, soft tits that a baby would latch on to if given the chance and a body producing estrogen.

He, now she is the "failed male". In a body built for a different role than what she was doing/used to.

I like to read stories of how that is handled by her, and others around her. If it is not in the story, I might add in what i like as I read it.


From: Lady Sekhmet , 115 months, post #52
@Forestier Men and women DO have different genetic makeup, with these differences concentrated primarily in the well known "X" and "Y" chromosomes. Overall there is roughly a 5% genetic difference between us based solely on our sex. Natural selection can easily take a hand in how these chromosomes change over time resulting in distinct inherited traits specific to the sex of the child.

For example... lets say we have a man and a woman. Lets also say the woman has attractive child bearing hips. Now lets say these two have a boy and a girl and both inherit the "X" chromosome from the woman. In all likelihood, the daughter will also have attractive child bearing hips, but clearly the son will not. It's simply not a trait that the male can inherit.

In this way gender specific desired traits are "bred" into future offspring.

From: guest (Pear shaped man) , 115 months, post #53
hey, I have child bearing hips and I'm a man, men can be pear shaped, it may not be an attractive feature in men but that doesn't mean a man can not be broad on bottom and thin on top.

It doesn't bother me, I'll never be one to hang out with rugby players or sporty men.

From: guest (Me And Me Only) , 115 months, post #54
Holy shit some of you are impossible�..You do not have female hips, you do not have a birth canal in your pelvic area.



From: Forestier , 115 months, post #55
To Lady Sekhmet.

But I'm sure that leadership and submissiveness are not carried through the XY chromosomes.

Of course, I do not have a womanly pelvis. But I could transmit to my daughter these wide-hip genes I may have inherited from my mother. Perhaps they do nothing to me, or perhaps they simply make all my skeleton broader and more solid, which is a good things in male too, especially if I have to hunt for mammoths...

From: guest (lily) , 115 months, post #56
@ Me and Me Only #49 Was sharing/telling what I enjoy in tg fiction/fantasy. And posted how I would like to have seen more of that incorporated into one story as an example. Or how I like to look for it in others.

Very simple.


As you say, your gift is not clear writing.

And you have not answered: What did you want people to say once they'd been informed of your preference for this kind of story?


From: guest (Jayzie) , 115 months, post #57
Message deleted by cj. Personal attack portion removed - remaining text ~~" I love how I'm called "sexist" just because I don't believe the bull**** that has been labeled "gender science." It's nothing but a bunch of psychological nonsense about how everything we are, our sexual preferences, our identity, our emotions, everything is totally learned and nothing is innate. Not a single thing. I'm not sorry for calling bull**** on that one. Lily has a bad attitude about this whole thing, he/she can't even join into a discussion without arguing with other members (Lady S) and being demeaning and condescending (which are things I've noticed today's "feminists" love to do). I will say this, I do have a hate for feminism. Not gonna lie, I just find it amusing that I don't have to exhibit it at all for idiots like you to label me as an "enemy to womankind." Idiots like my former best friend who suddenly started brainwashing himself with all this feminism "We men should all be very guilty and all be held accountable" crap. Then he tries to push this "We are violent creatures. Us men are terrible things, and I simply state "I don't agree with that, not all men are like that." Then he goes on a slander spree smearing my name all over social media, claiming I'm some kind of pedophile and talking about how he will not tolerate my "not all men are like that" attitude after he dropped the 'knowledge' of all the horrible things "we" have done to them. I won't disagree that some women have been put through some bad things, but you don't call me "sexist" OR a pedophile. That's ridiculous. When you lose one of your closest friends and that person turns you into a social pariah out of pure spite, TheN you can get on my level and call me names like that! Because then you'll know what hate really is!
From: Lady Sekhmet , 115 months, post #58
@Forestier *But I'm sure that leadership and submissiveness are not carried through the XY chromosomes.*

Are you sure about that? Do we even know where in our dna that such behavioral preferences express themselves? I for one would love to know... wouldn't it be interesting if evidence arose that submissive/passive tendencies come from a sequence on the X chromosome :)

As for receiving an X chromosome from the father it should be noted that the woman ALWAYS contributes an "X" chromosome (it's all she has) and therefore hers will always be expressed in a female offspring (just like the fathers). The difference is that ALL male offspring will contain only her "X" chromosome since only the father could have provided the "Y". That means ALL male decedents will only carry their mothers genes for producing the next female. This is the genetic edge that allows selective breeding by gender.

From: guest (KJ) , 115 months, post #59
If your looking for political correctness in a story, or to bend people to your political correct thoughts, would suggest staying away from TG fiction.

From: cj , 115 months, post #60
"As you say, your gift is not clear writing.

And you have not answered: What did you want people to say once they'd been informed of your preference for this kind of story?"


IMO - He did... clearly stated why he posted. Though not a DIRECT answer to your question, with no mention of wanting anyone to "say" anything... and with a lack of a question, it would seem to me that he was probably looking for audience (or stories) with similar tastes.

Since Me and Me Only has already claimed that writing isn't one of his strengths, we should be able to realize that we may not get the answer in the detailed and direct way that some would desire.

I'm sorry if this next part feels a bit harsh... but I have to say something - that question... and more-so, its repeat were actually beginning to make me a bit uncomfortable... and it wasn't even directed my way.


Please keep in mind that most of us are here to share, learn, and be entertained. Given the nature of this site's topics and the community that composes it - we all want to feel welcome and safe from others' judgments.

Sometimes there are no clear winners in a debate... especially over ideologies, much less human musings and desires.

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