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From: guest (lily)
, 115 months, post #41 |
@Me And Me Only Remove modern society, the differences and roles born to become
even more pronounced
Yes, and no. Gender differences are both innate and
learned. Some are imposed by "modern society" (by society in
general).
Stay-at-home mothers and housewives are entirely the product of a
wealthy society. In "primitive" or "less civilized" societies, the
survival requires the labor f women.
The division of labor may be made according to the differences in
physical strength -- women working at a different set of jobs then
men -- but women work hard.
Submissive women are, likewise, an artifact of culture. In
different societies, at different times, women have enjoyed degrees
of autonomy and political power. There have been varying degrees of
matriarchy, where women hold the political power either as rulers
or as "gatekeepers" who confer political power, and there have been
matrilineal societies where property is inherited through the
female line.
The hypothesis of a woman's "natural submissiveness" is falsified
by the existence of women who are not submissive. Such women are
well represented in history.
It is an interesting question, though, what a sexist man would do
if transformed -- against his will -- into a woman. Would she
try to conform to his
expectations of female behavior? Or, would she have her
consciousness raised -- becoming a feminist?
I cannot think of an example from TG fiction, but I am reminded of
the last scene of the movie The Watermelon Man.
|
From: Lady Sekhmet
, 115 months, post #42 |
Stay-at-home mothers and housewives are entirely the product of a
wealthy society.
This is not strictly true. What we would call primitive tribal
societies typically have the women remaining in the village cooking
and caring for the young. The vast number of human societies both
ancient and modern follow this basic premise. In fact, I can think
of no society where the man is considered the primary caregiver for
the children. Can you?
Submissive women are, likewise, an artifact of culture.
This is not really "on topic" for a post entitled "a female is a
failed male" and is in fact a rather explosive topic on its own...
but lets pursue it anyway :D
First off, let's be clear here about what being socially submissive
actually means (as opposed to sexually submissive which is a whole
other can of worms). This isn't a case of taking orders from
someone who has you under foot. It's more a case of frequently
deferring to someone else rather than always arguing over a course
of action while still being able to speak your mind about those
things you feel strongly about. It's rather like the agreement the
average taxpayer has with the government. We all deffer to our
elected officials to make decisions. We do not argue about every
little thing that goes on in politics, but when something unusually
important pops up, we speak our mind. We can be said to be
"submissive" to our government officials. It's not a derogatory
term, it simply means we have better things to do than to try to
lead. No group succeeds when every individual is the leader.
"natural submissiveness" is falsified by the existence of women who
are not submissive.
This implies you acknowledge that non submissiveness is the
exception rather than the rule. This is not surprising as no
behavioral characteristic is true 100% of the time. There is also a
scattering of males who prefer to be submissive but this is not
representative of the gender as a whole. When speaking of "natural
behavior" we are implicitly speaking of social averages. Feminists
are clearly not of the submissive bent and therefor vigorously
fight any such label. Because they themselves have no submissive
tendency they believe this must also be true for everyone of their
gender. However they do not speak for all women which is why they
are given their own special label "Feminist" so we all know what to
expect from them. It is because Feminists are not submissive that
they become the loudest part of any discussion. Women who are
perfectly happy in their roles have no cause to speak up and
therefor only the Feminist position is heard, despite it being the
minority opinion. Consider the opposite scenario - can you picture
the submissive minority of men taking up a campaign demanding women
take a strong leadership role in relationships and world politics?
Of course not, it would be counter to the very idea of being
submissive for them to even consider it. The same is true for the
majority of submissive women.
Submissive women are, likewise, an artifact of culture.
This is true but for a surprisingly different reason than you might
think. Now, this is going to come across as inflammatory but it's
actually not. The "artifact of culture" is in fact akin to how
wolves have become domesticated dogs. Submissive and attractive
qualities in women are actually bred in by natural selection just
as physically superior qualities are bred in to males. This sort of
breeding tendency can be seen in virtually all species of animals
and is not specific along gender lines. In some species this
selective breeding has caused the female to become the large
dominant gender while the male is smaller. In humans though, it is
the female who is smaller and more submissive. This is a survival
trait and is fundamental to the success of humanity as a species.
Only recently has this process been subverted by technology.
what a sexist man would do if transformed -- against his will --
into a woman.
I would venture that this is entirely dependent on the extent of
the transformation. If the transformation included the brain
structure of a woman while somehow preserving his memories and
identity, then one would expect the man to travel a long and
confused path towards submission. Most social scientists will tell
you that the vast majority of our base behavior is a result of the
brains physiological makeup and therefor this transformed
individual would be bombarded with feelings and emotions of a
distinctly female persuasion. In time I suspect these would lead to
him adopting his new found role in society. However, if it were
more of a brain transplant thing I would expect him to continue to
think and feel like a man but gradually take on a minimum of female
behaviors to allow him to operate in society. He would no doubt be
very uncomfortable with it, perhaps to the point of suicide. It
seems to me that such a transformation would be the same as
creating a F2M TS.
|
From: guest (Me And Me Only)
, 115 months, post #43 |
Use the word "passive", instead of submissive. A dominate partner,
a passive partner
|
From: guest (Lalola)
, 115 months, post #44 |
Doesn't mean dominance is a stronger trait then passiveness, you
could argue evil is a dominant force in the universe and good is a
passive force.
This is why religions are often evil as they dominate and subjugate
people, where as belief and spirituality are often passive and
subdued.
Would you say a Buddhist monk is weaker then a CEO? I wouldn't
personally, who says a woman has to be dominant to be better then a
mail, maybe it's a mans dominating nature that makes him a failed
woman. Maybe the world would be a better place without domineering
men and women, maybe those traits are self destructive as a
species.
Also out disregard of other life forms will probably destroy the
natural balance and the circle of life will end, this cannot be
blamed on natural submissiveness, only aggression and domination.
So I find the arguements in this thread crazy, but on the other
hand turning a dominant CEO or oil baron into a submissive green
peace loving hippy in personality would be a fetish I enjoy, if I
got three wishes one of them would be to change all the bullies and
bossy greedy people and leaders and other domineering people into
submissive caring people, but mentally as well as physically,
opening their eyes to how evil they were and making them realise
how much better the world would be without them.
So I'd say my fetish is the exact opposite of the one discussed in
this thread.
|
From: guest (lily)
, 115 months, post #45 |
@Me and Me Only Use the word "passive", instead of submissive. A dominate partner,
a passive partner
It's been a while since I read "Moons of Eden", and I don't have
time to read it again, but the women aren't portrayed as passive.
IIRC, the women have been modified in some way additional to the
sex change, so that they go into heat periodically until they
become bonded to one of the remaining men (searching the text for
"brain" it appears that there is some kind of device implanted in
the medullae of the transformees -- presumably this is what causes
the changes in their behavior).
I did skim through "Role Over Me" and the transformed husband is
explicitly submissive to her transformed wife. But it is not -- as
far as I can tell -- because she is trying to conform to her sexist
preconceptions about women. The change in her personality is part
of the spell that changed her anatomy. In Part 4
Dale stared at his wife angrily. He resented the fact that she had
simply vetoed his request out of hand, as if he had no rights at
all. After all, he had done everything she had asked of him�the
cooking, cleaning, washing. He even ironed her skirts and blouses
so she would look the part of a young executive when she went to
work. He�d become nothing more than her full-time housewife,
something he had never demanded of her, yet she was treating him
like a child. He was tempted to ask Sandy what gave her the right
to control his life, to tell him when he could come and go, but he
bit his tongue and remained silent. As much as he wanted to, he
simply could not bring himself to challenge her authority.
In his anger and frustration Dale turned on his heel to carry the
dished into the kitchen, but as he did a now-familiar wave of
dizziness swept over him and Dale nearly dropped the dishes. He
managed to maintain his balance but a cloudy, misty sensation
permeated his mind, along with a feeling of fluctuation. He felt
bewildered and confused, and failed to notice that Sandy�s clothes
were suddenly a little looser on him, with the exception of his
chest and bottom. He didn�t notice that his budding breasts had
just blossomed a little more, or that his appearance was a touch
more feminine than a moment before. He could not see that his
bottom was slightly more rounded or that his hips flared just a
touch more than a minute ago. He did pause when he was forced to
stand on tiptoes to reach the dishwashing liquid on the windowsill
behind the sink. He didn�t remember it being that hard to reach,
and wondered why his heels had nearly lifted out of Sandy�s white
canvas oxfords.
Dale was also puzzled about his lingering irritation with Sandy.
For a moment he could not quite recall why he had been annoyed with
her, and when he finally remembered he wondered why he had
overreacted like that. After all, Sandy was running things, and
rightfully so. She was far more logical and much better at these
complicated plans. She was also the bread-winner of the household,
and Dale reminded himself that his role was to support her and
provide a clean home, tasty and nutritious meals, and anything else
she needed. With that thought Dale tied an apron around his
suddenly thinner waist and started doing the dishes. In a few
moments he was humming softly to himself in a light, feminine
manner.
FWIW "passive" is not a less-demeaning adjective than "submissive".
One may choose
to submit. One may commit an act of submission. To be passive is
to have no agency.
When discussing roles in a sexual relationship, "passive partner"
is one who never initiates, or who expresses no preferences
regarding, sex acts. It carries the connotation of disinterest.
This very different from "submissive partner", which describes a
person who gets pleasure from being dominated. I know a
professional domme who jokes that her clients are very pushy and
particular about the way that they want to be dominated.
There is nothing natural about the submission of women in the
cultures that gave us purdah and the seraglio. It takes effort on
the part of men, and the complicity of frightened women, to impose
a submissive, subservient, role on half of the human population.
The model is not a peaceful and prosperous Ottoman Caliphate, where
a wealthy man might keep wives and concubines -- it is what comes
before the caliphate, the depredations and massacre of Boko Haram
or the Taliban. Submission under threat of death not the expression
of a "natural tendency".
|
From: guest (Me And Me Only)
, 115 months, post #46 |
From the end of Chapter 3
"But the real crisis was psychological, not physical. All his life
Dale had held an unquestioned belief in the superiority of the male
of the species. Males were taller, stronger, and more aggressive.
Males were the providers, the breadwinners, and the dominant
partner in a marriage. They were the undisputed heads of their
families, making all the major decisions�or at least having the
final say in matters of importance. Women, on the other hand, were
(or should be) submissive to their husbands. They were smaller,
weaker, less capable, and more inclined to emotion instead of
reason. Their rightful place was in the home, caring for children,
keeping the home spotless, and generally supporting their men.
As a man Dale had been only too happy to accept this ideology and
the benefits that went along with it, but now everything was turned
upside-down. At the very least he was no longer a male, technically
speaking, and with each passing day there were fewer and fewer
differences between him and any "natural" female.
The problem was that Dale had truly believed in the superiority of
males. It wasn�t just an act but an ingrained faith based upon what
he saw were clearly defined characteristics and abilities, and he
could no more deny his lifelong attitudes than he could deny his
name. But now that HE was the female in his marriage his old
beliefs were coming back to haunt him. If he denied his ideology
now, when the shoe was on the other foot, it would be like
admitting that his entire life was a lie, a sham, and that he was
nothing more than an opportunist who took advantage women. By his
own admission he would be nothing more than a despicable jerk.
He had avoided the crisis by telling himself he really wasn�t
female; that his "condition" was only temporary; that only one part
of him was female. But the previous evening had shattered those
excuses. He simply couldn�t shake the image that had stared back at
him from the mirror, and the girl in the looking glass had haunted
his dreams that night. He was forced to admit that he was far more
female than male now, which raised too many uncomfortable
questions.
Dale decided to avoid the issue for the time being. He was too
tired for deep thinking, and the more he considered the problem the
more confused he became. When they arrived back at the house he
concentrated on his mental checklist of things he had to do before
they moved out to the lake. He had only two more days left at his
job and Sandy wanted to move over the weekend. Dale wasn�t looking
forward to the move because it meant the end of his life as he had
known it and the beginning of a new life that held nothing but
uncertainty for him. Whatever happened, Dale was determined to
endure, but the fear of the unknown kept him tossing and turning
until well after midnight, while Sandy snored soundly next to him."
���.
But am just not interested in arguing the point of how I read it or
choose to read it for my enjoyment.
I am reading for enjoyment, not college credit
|
From: guest (lily)
, 115 months, post #47 |
@Me and Me Only But am just not interested in arguing the point of how I read it or
choose to read it for my enjoyment.
So, I ask again: What was it that you wanted to discuss when you
started this thread? What kinds of comments or questions did you
expect, or trying to solicit?
|
From: Lady Sekhmet
, 115 months, post #48 |
@lily: Basing ones view of the real world on works of net fiction
like Moons of Eden is probably part of the problem with this
discussion. Additionally neither the term "passive" nor
"submissive" should be considered "demeaning". These terms do not
denote disinterest, they instead denote a deferment on day to day
issues. Being submissive does not mean you can never be assertive
when something important arises. My analogy to the relationship
between tax payers and their elected officials continues to be a
good example. We submit to the actions and laws these knuckleheads
create but every so often we take matters into our own hands and
boot them out or force them to change. In other words, being
submissive is NOT the same as being powerless.
- It takes effort on the part of men, and the complicity of
frightened women, to impose a submissive, subservient, role on half
of the human population.*
This statement blows my mind. It is an absolute unmitigated
falsehood. Could it possibly be that in your minds eye you see a
world where all women live frightened shadowy lives afraid to be
themselves for fear that some male will forcefully impose his
domination over her? What sort of a cold dark place do you come
from where all you can see is some global nightmarish conspiracy of
men against women? I think perhaps you've read too much of that net
fiction, and perhaps a good deal too much of John Norman's works as
well.
Just look around at the vast majority of loving couples where the
woman happily defers to her man. There is no fear nor subjugation
by the man. He gladly accepts the role of provider and defender and
she the role of family caretaker. They each care for the other and
work together to make the family unit complete. Indeed most women
are quite happy to feel cared for by their man. Anyone who has had
even a single close relationship has experienced this. Most men
shine when they have someone they love that they can provide for
and most women glow when they have someone they love they can care
for and who provides for them.
I hope one day you find such a relationship Lily, be it with a man
or a woman. You may find that gender based roles come more
naturally than you once thought and can in fact be quite wonderful
for both parties.
Remember - a female is NOT a failed male - we're both part of a
team just with different parts to play.
|
From: guest (Me And Me Only)
, 115 months, post #49 |
�.."So, I ask again: What was it that you wanted to discuss when
you started this thread? What kinds of comments or questions did
you expect, or trying to solicit?�..
From my first post
"So enjoy reading TG fiction where a male is changed into a female
and in time becomes convinced they failed as a male and must go
forward as females."
"Just one of my likes in TG fiction"
Was sharing/telling what I enjoy in tg fiction/fantasy. And posted
how I would like to have seen more of that incorporated into one
story as an example. Or how I like to look for it in others.
Very simple.
|
From: guest (Forestier)
, 115 months, post #50 |
"And there have been matrilineal societies where property is
inherited through the female line.".
This has no relation with power. I could have inherited property
from my mother's brother, without any woman having any right over
it.
"Submissive and attractive qualities in women are actually bred in
by natural selection just as physically superior qualities are bred
in to males."
How can it be? If I am the offspring of a leading father and of a
submissive mother, how can it be that I inherited my behavorial
traits only from my father? Men and women are not two different
species!
|
From: guest (Me And Me Only)
, 115 months, post #51 |
""Remember - a female is NOT a failed male - we're both part of a
team just with different parts to play.""
Very much so.
And I like to see in fiction/fantasy genders get changed, along
with those roles getting changed for them.
So kind of like what I gave in the reference just above in the
story "Role Over" you have this tg storyline
A guy was raised to think women, when in the womb, were found to be
lacking, they failed to make the change over from a female fetus to
male, so remained female. A "failed male"
Now here he is, 25 years old, handsome, say 6' 1" tall, 230 pounds,
quite muscular, hard as a rock, 8" penis, male hormones a raging.
Now by magic he is changed into a beautiful female, 5' 1" tall, 100
pounds, can barely lift a 3 year old child. Has a place where an 8"
penis is to be used in, soft tits that a baby would latch on to if
given the chance and a body producing estrogen.
He, now she is the "failed male". In a body built for a different
role than what she was doing/used to.
I like to read stories of how that is handled by her, and others
around her. If it is not in the story, I might add in what i like
as I read it.
|
From: Lady Sekhmet
, 115 months, post #52 |
@Forestier Men and women DO have different genetic makeup, with
these differences concentrated primarily in the well known "X" and
"Y" chromosomes. Overall there is roughly a 5% genetic difference
between us based solely on our sex. Natural selection can easily
take a hand in how these chromosomes change over time resulting in
distinct inherited traits specific to the sex of the child.
For example... lets say we have a man and a woman. Lets also say
the woman has attractive child bearing hips. Now lets say these two
have a boy and a girl and both inherit the "X" chromosome from the
woman. In all likelihood, the daughter will also have attractive
child bearing hips, but clearly the son will not. It's simply not a
trait that the male can inherit.
In this way gender specific desired traits are "bred" into future
offspring.
|
From: guest (Pear shaped man)
, 115 months, post #53 |
hey, I have child bearing hips and I'm a man, men can be pear
shaped, it may not be an attractive feature in men but that doesn't
mean a man can not be broad on bottom and thin on top.
It doesn't bother me, I'll never be one to hang out with rugby
players or sporty men.
|
From: guest (Me And Me Only)
, 115 months, post #54 |
Holy shit some of you are impossible�..You do not have female hips,
you do not have a birth canal in your pelvic area.
|
From: Forestier
, 115 months, post #55 |
To Lady Sekhmet.
But I'm sure that leadership and submissiveness are not carried
through the XY chromosomes.
Of course, I do not have a womanly pelvis. But I could transmit to
my daughter these wide-hip genes I may have inherited from my
mother. Perhaps they do nothing to me, or perhaps they simply make
all my skeleton broader and more solid, which is a good things in
male too, especially if I have to hunt for mammoths...
|
From: guest (lily)
, 115 months, post #56 |
@ Me and Me Only #49 Was sharing/telling what I enjoy in tg fiction/fantasy. And posted
how I would like to have seen more of that incorporated into one
story as an example. Or how I like to look for it in others.
Very simple.
As you say, your gift is not clear writing.
And you have not answered: What did you want people to say once
they'd been informed of your preference for this kind of story?
|
From: guest (Jayzie)
, 115 months, post #57 |
Message deleted by cj. Personal attack portion removed - remaining text ~~"
I love how I'm called "sexist" just because I don't believe the bull**** that has been labeled "gender science." It's nothing but a bunch of psychological nonsense about how everything we are, our sexual preferences, our identity, our emotions, everything is totally learned and nothing is innate. Not a single thing.
I'm not sorry for calling bull**** on that one. Lily has a bad attitude about this whole thing, he/she can't even join into a discussion without arguing with other members (Lady S) and being demeaning and condescending (which are things I've noticed today's "feminists" love to do).
I will say this, I do have a hate for feminism. Not gonna lie, I just find it amusing that I don't have to exhibit it at all for idiots like you to label me as an "enemy to womankind."
Idiots like my former best friend who suddenly started brainwashing himself with all this feminism "We men should all be very guilty and all be held accountable" crap. Then he tries to push this "We are violent creatures. Us men are terrible things, and I simply state "I don't agree with that, not all men are like that."
Then he goes on a slander spree smearing my name all over social media, claiming I'm some kind of pedophile and talking about how he will not tolerate my "not all men are like that" attitude after he dropped the 'knowledge' of all the horrible things "we" have done to them.
I won't disagree that some women have been put through some bad things, but you don't call me "sexist" OR a pedophile. That's ridiculous.
When you lose one of your closest friends and that person turns you into a social pariah out of pure spite, TheN you can get on my level and call me names like that! Because then you'll know what hate really is! |
From: Lady Sekhmet
, 115 months, post #58 |
@Forestier *But I'm sure that leadership and submissiveness are not
carried through the XY chromosomes.*
Are you sure about that? Do we even know where in our dna that such
behavioral preferences express themselves? I for one would love to
know... wouldn't it be interesting if evidence arose that
submissive/passive tendencies come from a sequence on the X
chromosome :)
As for receiving an X chromosome from the father it should be noted
that the woman ALWAYS contributes an "X" chromosome (it's all she
has) and therefore hers will always be expressed in a female
offspring (just like the fathers). The difference is that ALL male
offspring will contain only her "X" chromosome since only the
father could have provided the "Y". That means ALL male decedents
will only carry their mothers genes for producing the next female.
This is the genetic edge that allows selective breeding by gender.
|
From: guest (KJ)
, 115 months, post #59 |
If your looking for political correctness in a story, or to bend
people to your political correct thoughts, would suggest staying
away from TG fiction.
|
From: cj
, 115 months, post #60 |
"As you say, your gift is not clear writing.
And you have not answered: What did you want people to say once
they'd been informed of your preference for this kind of story?"
IMO - He did... clearly stated why he posted. Though not a DIRECT
answer to your question, with no mention of wanting anyone to "say"
anything... and with a lack of a question, it would seem to me that
he was probably looking for audience (or stories) with similar
tastes.
Since Me and Me Only has already claimed that writing isn't one of
his strengths, we should be able to realize that we may not get the
answer in the detailed and direct way that some would desire.
I'm sorry if this next part feels a bit harsh... but I have to say
something - that question... and more-so, its repeat were actually
beginning to make me a bit uncomfortable... and it wasn't even
directed my way.
Please keep in mind that most of us are here to share, learn, and
be entertained. Given the nature of this site's topics and the
community that composes it - we all want to feel welcome and safe
from others' judgments.
Sometimes there are no clear winners in a debate... especially over
ideologies, much less human musings and desires.
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- If you disagree with a moderation decision, please make an argument
as to why it should be reinstated. Use the posting guidelines to justify your point.
Do not attack the moderator.
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