Made for TV Movie. Heaven can wait type plot. Macho hockey star killed before his time accidently by an angel is sent back in the beautiful body of America's best female Figure skater to have a chance of winning a gold medal. He is not very happy about being a girl! But he learns to skate like the ...more|
From: Duncan Scott FitzHugh*
, 282 months, post #1 |
The problem with this film, SYNAPSE, and all other "give in to the
new body" type of TG movies is that the human mind is biologically
hard-wired to one gender while still in the womb, so that even time
and hormonal inundation will never completely alter the inner
perception of being male or female, no matter what the exterior
form happens to be. No macho sports star (ICE ANGEL) or cold killer
(SYNAPSE) would ever be able to completely "let go" and accept a
new role, as real-life examples of penis-deprived little boys
raised as girls prove (they are almost never comfortable as females
and most eventually suffer mental illness). Unless, of course, the
fetus was exposed to the "wrong" hormonal flow in the pre-birth
development. These non-changing-back films would seem to say more
about the fantasies of the writers (a la Hank/Jean-Marie Stine, of
SEASON OF THE WITCH/SYNAPSE) than stand as logical examinations of
involuntary transsexualism. Or perhaps I'm full of hot air. DSF|
From: Suzanne de Nimes*
, 281 months, post #2 |
(to Duncan): Maybe, but how do you know? Obviously, we don't have
peoples' brains/minds/souls (and each of these might work
differently) being transferred into other bodies in real life. (Not
to mention that in cases like "Ice Angel," it's done with *magic*.)|
But I don't think real life transsexuals, hermaphrodites, etc. are
a good analogue to having your consciousness placed in the healthy,
hormonally normal body of the opposite sex. It raises a lot of
questions about what forces shape identity and sexuality, but I
don't think there's any one correct answer. The approach taken in
"Ice Angel" seems as valid to me as any other. (And in a practical
sense, if you're in this situation and don't go insane or commit
suicide, ultimately you *have* to deal with it somehow, assuming
the change is irreversible. Who knows what might happen over time?)
From: Duncan Scott FitzHugh*
, 281 months, post #3 |
Since we don't have magical transformations or (as yet) brain
transplants to study, we must proceed with the most closely related
examples available, in this case little boys raised as girls due to
medical accidents. These children almost never accept their
feminine roles and generally undergo severe psychological distress,
even when estrogen is introduced during puberty. Seems much more
likely to me than some macho hockey player would either submit to a
sex change operation or commit suicide rather than accept life as a
female. Then, again, who can say for certain? DSF|
From: Suzanne de Nimes*
, 281 months, post #4 |
(to Duncan) "Then, again, who can say for certain?" Exactly. That's
all I'm saying. We don't know. I just suspect there'd be a big
difference between an "altered male," which is essentially what all
real life examples are, and a male whose consciousness is placed in
a healthy female body that's naturally producing the correct
hormonal balance for a young woman.|
From: Duncan Scott FitzHugh*
, 281 months, post #5 |
It's all in 'the wiring'. If you receive the male hormone surge
while in the womb, you shall be biologically imprinted as masculine
even if your brain is transplanted unpon birth into a female body,
and vice versa, as well. The 'wrong' hormonal introduction to
fetuses results in the poor people who actually resort to
'altering' surgery to 'correct Nature's mistakes'. ODIO MI CUERPO
is a much more realistic examination of involuntary transsexualism
than SYNAPSE or ICE ANGEL or 99% of all such titilating fluff.
'Celeste' and 'Sarah' surely must have harbored some secret desires
prior to their 'unwanted' metamorphoses. Or so claims current
medical/psychological research. Sorry. DSF|
, 241 months, post #6 |
It *IS* all in the wiring. And in the impossible case of having
your mind/soul placed in the body of a young girl, all the wiring
is going to be that of the young girl. Whatever your mind thinks,
it's going to be at odds with how your body reacts and even how
your physical brain is wired to think, act, and respond. There can
be no comparison to anything in real life.
Which is all completely aside from whether this movie is a good
portrayal of such, but your argument that forced gender transition
(which, by the way, is only sometimes the big disaster you're
talking about, not always) is in any way analagous to having your
spirit placed in a healthy body of the opposite sex is patently
ridiculous. This is fantasy, as you said -- trying to say it's
"realistic" or "unrealistic" fantasy is a vain pursuit.
, 241 months, post #7 |
I doubt that DSF will read your response, since according to
Publisher's Weekly he was transferred back to London about a year
ago. However, at the risk of being a buttinski, I think that he
probably would point out that an individual's personality (and its
male/female persuasion) is "hardwired" by hormonal activity in the
pre-birth stage. So even if that personality were transferred
magically to a physical brain of the opposite gender, the general
sexual outlook would remain the same. Therefore, I think
"ridiculous" is a rather over-bearing term. Also, more and more
research suggests that virtually all of the "boys raised as girls"
cases have turned out terribly. Dr. Money -- who is most
responsible for this activity with his fixation that "nuture trumps
heredity" -- is being discredited more each day, as dozens of young
lives have proven to have been ruined by his reckless conduct.
Seems that we are who we are (to paraphrase Popeye) once we leave
the womb, no matter what happens thereafter. Daydreamer.|
, 241 months, post #8 |
There's a huge difference between and adult being stuck in this
situation (as in the fantasy of Ice Angel and others) and the real
life situation as "boys raised as girls". In the latter, you have
individuals (children) who have certain feelings but are not given
all the information. For all they know, they were born female. In
Ice Queen, the protagonist knows what has happened as well as the
fact that he was a mentally stable (relatively speaking) adult
prior to the switch. While it's still possible that he could go
mad, it's also possible that he would accept and learn to live with
his new gender. We have a fairly uncanny ability to adapt to
, 241 months, post #9 |
I'm well aware of Dr. Money and his goofy ideas that have resulted
in the destruction of many lives, having read "As Nature Made Him"
by John Colapinto.
My point is that you can't assume that gender identity is
hard-wired into your soul and not just your brain. It might be, but
there's no way to prove it, no way to produce evidence to support
it, and no reason to make that leap in logic. In every case of
gender reassignment you can cite, the person involved still has the
brain thei were born with. Is their sense of self part of their
soul, or just a part of their physical brain? Man has been asking
that question for millenia, but still nobody knows. Nobody CAN
Therefore Duncan's flat, forceful statement that "this is the way
it is" contains a leap in logic that is not an obvious or logical
one. We are talking about an impossible fantasy scenario and we
can't know for certain how a male soul in a 100% female body will
Certainly, the existence of gender dysphoria suggests that some or
even most would not accept their new sex. But just because SOME
people are born with the conviction that they are in the wrong
body, and cannot be convinced otherwise, and just because some (or
most?) people who have suffered gender reassignment as children
(Dr. Money's specialty) reject it, does not necessarily indicate
that ALL people are 100% locked into their gender identity at
birth, or so identify with one gender that they could never accept
being of the opposite gender.
I don't doubt in the least the real-life examples that you and
Duncan cite regarding gender dysphoria and the discrediting of
Money's ideas of "nurture over nature", which has held sway in the
medical community for far too long and ruined many many lives. But
you can't assume that everyone identifies 100% with one gender
only, and you certainly can't know if one's gender identity is in
any way wired into one's soul.
From: DEVIL SPAWNED FISH*
, 241 months, post #10 |
God this topic is full of crap. I hate it when people get in to
pointless arguments about hypothetical situations. It's just so
From: Screw that*
, 241 months, post #11 |
who gives a damn. its a good topic.|
Listen up, Ice Angel, the man was told he would be reincarnated to
finish out his life he never did (but the ending changed). The
reason you'd accept is because they picked the body that was
avalable and put him in there, so you would have to adapt. Now with
Synapse, you would if your body did not have a working brain. But
if you had the chance you decide this. Either give up your baby you
created as a man or kill that and go back into your body? which
one? see my point.
, 241 months, post #12 |
hey is there any pics or movie stills out there?|
, 241 months, post #13 |
Biological urges of the new body and brain, and the education of
the old mind, not to mention society's expectations of proper
behavior for the newly gendered mind transplant patient, would
doubtless lead to changes in thinking.|
How many changes is the only question.
, 241 months, post #14 |
Many of you folks saboutage your own arguments while making them.
The "gender dysphoria" people prove DSF's case much more than they
damage it. According to current thought, the majority of these
unfortunate people are influenced in the womb ("hardwired") by
exposure to the "wrong" hormones, fixing their sexual identities at
odds with their bodies. They grow up being inundated by hormones
that are "correct" to their physical bodies, yet they still
maintain the desire to live as the opposite gender, in spite of all
of the chemical indoctrination otherwise (I once heard on Paul
Harvey of a man who waited until his middle seventies -- after his
wife died -- before undergoing a lifelong-desired sex change). Of
course, we can never be 100% certain about any topic, especially
when dealing with overt fantasy scenarios like ICE ANGEL, but given
what research we do have, I think Duncan's argument has by far the
most evidence to support it. Men changed against their will into
women by surgery (or whatever) wouldn't HAVE to go mad or commit
suicide, and they might even live fulfilling existences, but with
our inner gender concepts being what they are, I believe it most
likely that these individuals would seek out lesbian lifestyles, as
in ODIO MI CUERPO, the most "realistic" unwanted sex change film
that I am aware of. It's certainly much more realistic than ICE
ANGEL, SWITCH, SYNAPSE (which is little more than its author's
wish-fulfillment fantasy, since Stine later underwent sex
reassignment surgery), or even GOODBYE, CHARLIE. Maybe someday
we'll be presented with actual results of such a situation, if
brain transplantation ever becomes feasible.|
, 241 months, post #15 |
Ahhhhhh, but brain transplantation would still involve a MALE
The ice angel character has a totally female brain with no
indication of prior transgender desires. So changes in the movie
follow as shown reasonably, though a different soul might respond
, 240 months, post #16 |
As I recall, in one of my stories I actually had a young man's
brain transplanted into a woman's body with quite a graphic
depiction of the medical procedure involved. I remember saying that
the person's brain was slowly feminizing due to the level of female
hormone reaching the brain, which is what I believe would happen in
a real brain transplant.|
, 240 months, post #17 |
Ice angel is a bad example for anyone to use to argue that a male
mind or spirt would have to be still male and want a lesbain
relationship even in a female brain & body. Rememebr the powers of
Heaven itself or envolved in this. Not a human agency! It would be
easy for them to to make the sexual preference of the new woman
whatever they want & they do! As for Synapse again it is not a bran
trnsplnt but a mind in a female brain & body. Also 'she' undergows
extensive brain washing & mental conditioning. Plus the orginal was
hardly a happy campier, bitter, lonely & miserable in a friendles
loveless life. Don't you think they want want something a lot
better? You can see 'her' fight her body brains instincts before
she gives in & compfrts the male leader of the rebellion after his
lover has been killed & also says to the genius doc "If you ever
cared for me at all you keep quiet about this baby' its a very
female utterence. But much of this is besides the point. They're
just stories & cut the authors some slack!|
, 240 months, post #18 |
blar blar blar blar blar blar blar blar blar blar blar blar|
, 222 months, post #19 |
If there are any UK residents interested in catching this movie it
is being played on Thursday the 10/March/2005 on channel 5 at 10
am. It's going under the title, "On Thin Ice: Going For Gold" but
its still the same movie.|
Great site by the way!
From: Goofus McDoofus*
, 222 months, post #20 |
Never-the-less, you're born with a sexual identity pre-set in your
brain. People who live for decades as amuptees or quadraplegics
still experience "phantom pains" in limbs they no longer have (or
can feel) and still run and jump in their dreams. A male brain
transplanted into a female body -- or vice-versa --, if it had not
been sexually confused beforehand, would retain an inner image of
its orginal gender. Sure, most people would learn to cope I
imagine, but deep down, where you can't lie to yourself, a boy
would stay a boy and a girl would stay a girl. At least, that's the
current psychological reasoning. Examining the topic from my
preferred perception, a human brain transplanted into an animal
might atrophy some or (more likely) go insane, but as long as that
brain could continue to think with any clarity, it would continue
to consider itself to be human, not animal. Goofus McDoofus.|
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