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From: guest
, 118 months, post #21 |
This discussions gone well off topic, Anthropologically speaking
grown men control grown women, but biologically speaking women are
more robust then men, Infact much much more robust.
A baby born needs a secure inviroment to be born, he has to be
lucky in childhood to make it to adult hood.
Surely it makes sense if there is a famine then more girls are born
then boys, this allows the males to take more mates and reproduce
quickly when times are good. If men were the stronger sex then
women would have more sons then daughters, which doesn't help
biologically speaking at all.
Now Anthropological reasons exist to have more boys, they can be
put to work and to war without a mate for the good of a community,
it doesn't matter that they never reproduce as that is the job of
the eldest son alone. This can be seen throughout history and even
currently in some cultures.
This conversation keeps bordering on extream sexism in m opinion, I
understand it may be some people's fetish to see women as delicate
submissive little things, but it doesn't make it true or acceptable
to the general reader. Maybe a warning on a thread may be an idea
for this sort of thing? Save me reading it in the first place and
feeling offended
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From: guest (Me And Only Me)
, 118 months, post #22 |
Or you could have just stopped. No one makes you feel offended,
that was a choice you made.
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From: Lady Sekhmet
, 118 months, post #23 |
Let's just wrap this up here:
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From: guest (Cleo Kraft)
, 118 months, post #24 |
I think the main reason women outlive men isn't that they're better
genetically, it's that they take care of themselves better. Men, I
think, are more self destructive, tend to be alcoholics, etc. and
waste themselves away. That said my great grandfather, an over
weight alcoholic, outlived his skinny wife (a tea totaler) by a
good number of years into his late 90's. So who knows? I've always
thought the reason women outlive men is that they like their bodies
more, take better care of themselves and therefor live longer. Not
that genetics have anything to do with it. Sure bad genes could
cause death sooner but I really don't think that's the cause here.
It's probably more to do with which gender is more likely to take
better care of themselves and I think the blue ribbon on that has
got to go to women.
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From: guest (lily)
, 118 months, post #25 |
@ guest #21 "This conversation keeps bordering on extream sexism in
m opinion.."
No, CJ and Jayzie jumped the fence into "sexism" almost
immediately, then "guest1" dragged the thread deep into MRA
country,
I've reread the top post a couple of times, and I can't really make
it out. "Me and only me" seems to be saying that he is a fan of
"Under the Moons of Eden" but that it didn't go far enough with the
sissification, or that the un-transformed males weren't shown
enjoying the submissiveness of the submissive females enough, or
something.
The theme of social demotion and submission to a dominant is pretty
common in TG fiction. Sometimes its to a woman, sometimes to a man.
Psychologists probably have a "just so" story about discharging
anxieties about failing as a man or fear of castration or some
other folderol.
Whatever, Dom/Sub fantasies appear to be pretty common in every
fetish and paraphilia community. Some people are just turned on by
the idea of submitting to the will of another, and some people are
turned on by the idea of dominating another (and lots of people are
switch).
The idea that women are "naturally" subservient to men though, that
in some "primitive" or "wild" state men are the leaders and women
the worshipful and grateful sexual furniture, cooks, and
baby-makers, is a different kind of fantasy. It can be an
entertaining fantasy, but it is fantasy and it is a a bad idea to
make decisions as if it were not.
Civilization is
our natural state. We
create a culture around ourselves, and we live in it. The modern,
western, norms and mores by which women and men are accounted as
equal in autonomy and worth are not an aberration. They are an
adaptation.
Some men may long for a simpler world, where the strong dominate
the weak, drive their enemies before them, take the swiftest of
their ponies between their legs, and bed the most beautiful of
their daughters -- but this is no more the "natural state" for
humans than is life aboard a submarine. It is how we are in war,
and wars end.
Also, playing video games does not prepare you to be a warlord of
the post apocalyptic hellscape. When doomsday comes, the men who
are bothered enough to complain about feminism and the "natural
inferiority" of women on internet discussion boards will be lucky
to be taken as slaves. Most will just die.
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From: guest (Cleo Kraft)
, 118 months, post #26 |
I don't think men are necessarily stronger than women (or that it
even matters). When I used to wrestle in a co-ed environment, a
woman more skilled in wrestling beat me easily every single time
despite she was half my size. She was just quicker, more agile and
able to pin me down before I had time to react. Strength didn't
even enter the picture there, it was discarded in favor of skill
and agility.
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From: guest (Me And Only Me)
, 118 months, post #27 |
Lady S,
Funny! Thanks for adding!
Lily,
I do not care what you think, even if it were sexist, that is my
freedom. Just move on and torture yourself no more.
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From: guest (KJ)
, 118 months, post #28 |
This is not a class or a lecture, it is a fantasy forum. Have some
fun, like Lady S did.
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From: Lady Sekhmet
, 118 months, post #29 |
Offtopic of course, but this is not entirely a "fantasy forum".
There's plenty of room for intelligent discourse. Frankly I enjoy
it. Lily is passionate about her position and has consistently been
so for many years here. I personally respect that even if I
disagree with it on occasion.
That being said, I think it's probably healthy in a public forum
like this one to not take anything too seriously.
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From: guest (lily)
, 118 months, post #30 |
@ Me and only Me # 27 I do not care what you think, even if it were sexist, that is my
freedom. Just move on and torture yourself no more.
Instruct me then. What kinds of responses did you expect, or hope
for, when you made the top post?
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From: cj
, 118 months, post #31 |
"CJ and Jayzie jumped the fence into "sexism" almost
immediately..."
Yep. Gotta recognize that there are still differences between men
and woman. I guess that makes me a bit sexist. Each gender (in
general) has its superior traits versus the other - and I'm sure
that we could make a whole discussion on those alone. The fact is
that men and women are all still all just human, and deserve the
same respect and value... both as a fellow human being, and for
their contributions to the world.
I know that this is the goal that many of us hope for in the real
world. For women to get equal treatment and pay for the same work
as men - and that there is still a long way to go to see that
realization.
It doesn't stop my occasional fantasy about becoming a somewhat
submissive female and following the societal norms of the
mid-twentieth century (or ancient concubine). Would I want to live
there permanently... probably not, but a fantasy is a fantasy,
especially when it's not too tied into our real world.
So, yeah. Even if I think I know and understand about gender
equality issues - I'm still viewing the world from a male POV, and
can't fully experience a female POV... so, it's quite possible that
I am still sexist in my real-life view/opinions.
"Civilization is our natural state. We create a culture around
ourselves, and we live in it. The modern, western, norms and mores
by which women and men are accounted as equal in autonomy and worth
are not an aberration. They are an adaptation."
Civilization, as you state, is an adaptation. It is our desire to
improve upon natural order and advance ourselves and the universe.
When civilization fails (they always seem to), the natural order
STARTS to take hold again... until we once again rise from the
debris to found a new civilization.
Personally, I hope NOT to be around when this one falls (good
chance, either way) as I'm likely to be unlucky enough to survive
the initial collapse, and then quickly find myself taken advantage
of (no, not like that... I'd hope), and die a slow and miserable
death after a very uncomfortable rest of my life.
"Some men may long for a simpler world, where the strong dominate
the weak, drive their enemies before them, take the swiftest of
their ponies between their legs, and bed the most beautiful of
their daughters -- but this is no more the "natural state" for
humans than is life aboard a submarine. It is how we are in war,
and wars end."
Lily, I'm not sure that that is entirely true. Most of the guys I
know do want to live in a simpler world - but simply free from
stress and worry, and not too physically demanding. Yet every
single one of them has drive and desire to be the Alpha... to be
superior to their peers... to be the top dog. War or not, they seek
to dominate their field and use that to their advantage over other
any and all others. To be the best. You can see this most often
where there is war, lawlessness, and high-incidence of drug/alcohol
abuse - all times when the consequences of justice are perceived
either limited or non-existent, and men (mostly) will forget their
civility and simply take what they want.
"Also, playing video games does not prepare you to be a warlord of
the post apocalyptic hellscape."
I can't argue that.
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From: guest (lily)
, 118 months, post #32 |
@cj Yep. Gotta recognize that there are still differences between men
and woman. I guess that makes me a bit sexist�
You didn't merely acknowledge the differences between the sexes,
you suggested that women dissemble and manipulate in order to
control men.
What if the women
simply allow the men to think that they are in charge, when what
is really happening is that the women lure and guide the men to do
their bidding through subtle coercion and the reward of sexual and
other pleasures.
If you'd qualified this with "some women" or "some times" this
wouldn't not have been (as) sexist. You did not, so it is.
Yet every single one of them has drive and desire to be the
Alpha... to be superior to their peers... to be the top dog
You need a broader and -- I dare say -- better quality circle of
male acquaintances.
It is our desire to improve upon natural order and advance
ourselves and the universe. When civilization fails (they always
seem to), the natural order STARTS to take hold again... until we
once again rise from the debris to found a new civilization.
I think that the distinction between "civilization" and "natural
order" is a romantic conceit, and a false distinction for humans.
We organize ourselves into civilizations, around a systems of
stories and expect behaviors called cultures. There has not really
been an "uncivilized" period in recorded history, THere have been
failed states, there have been dark times, there have been cultures
and civilizations which were destroyed by conflict with other
cultures, or by natural disaster, but we do not exist separate from
our cultures.
As a modifier, "civilized" is a comparative. That is, we recognize
a group or individual may be more or less civilized (usually, this
is a comparison of one cultures customs and taboos to another's,
rather than a comparison of how "advanced" along some scale of
civilization that group may be). But, only when completely isolated
as an individual can one be uncivilized
.
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From: cj
, 118 months, post #33 |
I see what you're saying. Please note that post #2 was a
recollection of a ponderance... not the way that I actually see
things.
But I can see now where it could be taken differently... And I'm
certainly not going to argue that I may be sexist in my views.
Though I try not to be sexist, it's difficult to truly see things
from a perspective that one will never have.
"You need a broader and -- I dare say -- better quality circle of
male acquaintances."
In some case, yes. However, I've not EVER met a guy who doesn't
have that competitive streak, that need to be number one. Most of
us keep things to a reasonable level (most of the time).
Sure, in guys like myself, this need to be dominant isn't as
visible... but it's still there. Most of us have much better
control of those animal instincts / base desires than the few.
Still, even I want to strut my deluded sense of superiority when I
can. (And does that ever have me wondering what's wrong in my
head.)
"I think that the distinction between "civilization" and "natural
order" is a romantic conceit, and a false distinction for humans.
We organize ourselves into civilizations, around a systems of
stories and expect behaviors called cultures. There has not really
been an "uncivilized" period in recorded history..."
I agree that there really hasn't been a wholly "uncivilized" period
in recorded history (that I can think of). That alone IMO makes the
first part of your statement problematic, and also could support my
"STARTS"
qualifier.
As we as a species have progressed, we seem to be able to override
some of the more base instincts/actions/desires and weigh them with
regards to future consequences... and hopefully compassion,
respect, and perhaps even empathy.
But those animalistic bases are still there. And that is sometimes
a worrisome and sometimes a frighteningly exiting thing.
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From: guest (observer)
, 118 months, post #34 |
Yes, you could say women are socially castrated men. This is how
our society is structured at the moment. Men and girls. How often
do you hear it? Under different social circumstances, women would
have undoubtedly flourished, but it is what it is at the moment. If
women were perceived as equal, then losing TO A GIRL would not be
something which taints men. Interestingly enough, men AND women
would be mocking the loser. Women often insult themselves, why?
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From: guest (Luv_To_Switch_Bods)
, 118 months, post #35 |
"A Woman Is A Failed Male" This assertion is stupid
from the get go. It's not only offensive, it's false.
Women are our equals or better in a lot of
categories.
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From: guest (Me And Me Only)
, 118 months, post #36 |
Ok, some of you need to remember from the get go, this is a
discussion that was started about tg FICTION
I mentioned FICTION at least 2 times in the first post. Along with
saying I did not think it was true.
A big part of tg FICTION is to have the male who becomes female
feel as if they have been "reduced", "punished", "placed in a
giver/supporter/follower role", and the list goes on.
I mentioned it is a story line scenario I like in tg FICTION. (i
like the tv show Dexter, but I do not kill like that nor do I
suggest any do so.)
If that in FICTION is not your thing, am going to suggest you do
not read about 90% of tg FICTION/FANTASY.
Now some of the conversation has been moved over into reality land,
and that is cool and rightful to do so�.Other than a post like #14,
where once again Lily has ridden in on their horse of pious.
I like exciting conversation, I do not like lectures (lily)
We all have fantasies, some women even have rape fantasies, that
does not mean they want to actually be raped. They are able to
separate their fantasy from reality.
One of my fantasies happens to be having men changed by magic or
other, into actual women. Especially macho types who might have
viewed women as failed to make it as men from the very begging in
in the womb.
Now they are the female and I like it in the story where they come
to accept being a female, even to the point of believing that have
been ungraduated/failed and accept that they failed somehow as a
man and must accept their female, supporter, passive partner,
homemaker, baby bearer, you name it role.
Maybe you do not like tg fiction, to that I have to ask why are you
in this conversation? Maybe you like tg fiction, but this is not
your thing, great, men being dressed as and treated like little
girls is not mine, but I do not get all pissed off about it, I just
stay away from it.
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From: guest (Me And Me Only)
, 118 months, post #37 |
But a positive to Lily (and Lady S, cj and others.)
Wish I had your ability to communicate as well in the written word.
I do not, then get frustrated.
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From: guest (Me And Me Only)
, 118 months, post #38 |
Was just thinking of another story scenario.
In the story "Role Over" by Julia Manchester, the male of the
couple believes that men are natural leaders and women are natural
followers. Men lead, work, command, etc. and the women are to
follow, take care of the home and children, submit to him etc.
Then he and his wife get their genders swapped by magic (not body
swap), just changed. His wife becomes a large/muscular male and he
a petite/weak (is pointed out in story how weak) female.
The new man takes on a domineering/follow me role and in her loss
of size/strength the new woman starts to feel submissive to him and
less sure of herself.
Then the new female thinks that if she does not live up to the role
that she, when a he, believed women should be, it would prove her
thought life as a man was wrong/based on a lie.
So to prove she was right when a man, she willingly falls into the
role of how she, when male, believed women should be.
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From: guest (lily)
, 118 months, post #39 |
@ Me and only me Wish I had your ability to communicate as well in the written word.
I do not, then get frustrated.
Is english your native language?
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From: guest (Me And Me Only)
, 118 months, post #40 |
��.Is english your native language?��.
Yes (sad is it not?)
...Women are our equals��.
In worth, men and women are equal. In most any other area, they are
not equal.
Remove modern society, the differences and roles born to become
even more pronounced.
TG fiction deals a great amount with those differences and roles.
To the point it can be seen in some stories, that in the womb, some
"move up" to the dominate/leader/more free role, others are left to
remain as they are and be the submissive/follower/more locked to
their body limitations role�..Then the bodies become opposite
genders and the new differences and roles are forced on them.
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