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From: guest (Me And Me Only)
, 118 months, post #1 |
No I do not believe that, but could see where some could try and
make the argument.
We all start out as female embryos but in the womb some graduate to
become male. On average bigger, stronger, less emotional, not tied
down with pregnancy and the like. Those who do not graduate remain
female.
So enjoy reading TG fiction where a male is changed into a female
and in time becomes convinced they failed as a male and must go
forward as females.
One story that comes to mind is "Under The Moons Of Eden" where an
all male military force is marooned on a planet and half of them
are slowly transformed overnight into an image of their ideal
female. In that story I thought there should have been emphasis by
those who remained male to the new females that the force which
changed them looked at all the men, and the ones found less
deserving to remain male were changed into females they now are.
This helps make the new females less sure of themselves and more
accepting that the male they pair up with was the better male of
the two and them as the new female need to accept being dominated
by and submissive/passive to her man.
Just one of my likes in TG fiction
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From: cj
, 118 months, post #2 |
I recently pondered if, in fact, the old chauvinistic point of view
that men were "superior" to women, was in fact a ruse, allowed by
women even to this day.
When you really get down to the nuts and bolts of things... most of
men's desires are all in an effort to put them into position to
choose the best and the most (or sometimes all) available mates.
So, isn't it really the women who hold all the power over men?
After all, men are always out to do what they have to do to win the
girl.
What if the women simply allow the men to think that they are in
charge, when what is really happening is that the women lure and
guide the men to do their bidding through subtle coercion and the
reward of sexual and other pleasures.
Sure, I know that there are several holes to my theory (violence
against women, and other atrocities... religious and cultural
practices that might seem to debunk it too) - but... what if?
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From: guest (Me And Me Only)
, 118 months, post #3 |
Have thought about the same a bit. Sure appreciate the input to the
conversation.
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From: cj
, 118 months, post #4 |
My pleasure. Gotta' play Devil's Advocate when I can. :-)
Thanks for staring a unique discussion.
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From: guest (lily)
, 118 months, post #5 |
Or, a male is a deformed female. His breasts stunted, his womb
divided and useless, his gonads dangling precariously exposed and
in the way.
What is a Y-chromosome, after all, if not a broken and misshapen X?
A puny thing, having lost 96% of the genes it possessed as an
autosome to the X. And so many of the remaining genes have
deleterious effects, In the developed. western, nations the life
average expectancy of women exceeds that of men by as much as a
decade.
And yes CJ, I'd say that the practice of female genital mutilation
is sufficient to falsify your hypothesis that women created the
"myth" of the patriarchy.
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From: guest (ThatGuy)
, 118 months, post #6 |
Well, maybe genitals don't contribute to your entire personality
and worth as a human being. Just a thought.
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From: guest (Jayzie)
, 118 months, post #7 |
In today's world I don't believe that there is as large of a gender
divide as believed or endorsed by certain forms of media.
Then again I don't exactly believe in social constructs theories or
even sexuality being a choice either. I mean who would choose to be
aroused by some weird fantasy of becoming the opposite sex and not
by the same means of all of our peers? If these theories were
correct, all of us would've been brainwashed as children to find
the same exact things attractive as everyone else.
Heck, on the other hand we might have grown up with more feminine
mannerisms and attitudes.
I don't know, to me it seems that much of today's gender science is
a crock of you know what geared towards making males feel guilty
for things that not all of them do, and making women feel that if
they don't conform to more independent roles (whether they want to
or not) that they are traitors.
Honestly the only things about tg that seems to interest me is the
different body. Becoming the thing you once desired in a sexual
way. It never had anything to do with being "dominated" because as
a teen the idea of being with a man completely repulsed me. I just
wanted to be in a woman's body and be her, be beautiful and thin
and have those curves too.
I just think some people over think it.
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From: Lady Sekhmet
, 118 months, post #8 |
Perhaps the question needs to be what do you mean by fail? What is
the test?
If the test is the number of progeny the adult can conceive, then
men pretty much win. They can father far more children than a woman
can bear (there's a double meaning in that!).
If the test is who is more likely to survive on their own in the
wilderness, again, men most likely win. The size and strength are
in his favor.
If the test is who is more likely to provide the glue that holds
modern civilization together, that one goes to the women. Despite
what your respective governments may tell you, it's women who
provide the social fabric that make the modern organized world
possible.
Human society is rather like that of equines. It's the mares that
keep the herd together. The stallions mostly keep to themselves,
providing protection from predators and when needed, stud services
:)
Each has a role to play - there is no failure, just capabilities
that, as a generality, make one better in certain areas than the
other. And as a whole we all benefit from each other.
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From: guest
, 118 months, post #9 |
Lol that's stupid, were all failed females... For a few reasons
1) the Y chromosome has less information then the X,
2) this makes males sickly and weaker then females
We do start of as female embryos, but a female sperm will make a
stronger baby then a make sperm, as such more baby boys die then
baby girls.
Anyway don't take my word for it watch this, then stop peddling
chauvinist myths :)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3IaYhG11ckA
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From: guest (Me And Me Only)
, 118 months, post #10 |
Lighten up Francis
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From: guest (lily)
, 118 months, post #11 |
@Lady S.
If the test is who is more likely to survive on their own in the
wilderness, again, men most likely win. The size and strength are
in his favor.
Define wilderness please? Being larger means more mass to haul
around, which requires more calories. It also means a larger
surface area through which to lose water.
The square-cube law means the larger organism has a proportionally
smaller surface area through weight to radiate heat, so if the
"wilderness" is in the tropics then the advantage may well go to
the smaller individual.
The whole notion that a man's superior physical strength will make
him more fit in any test of survival needs to be examined. Men are,
on average, stronger than women but the advantage is most easily
observed in contests between men and women.
If the test is who is more likely to provide the glue that holds
modern civilization together, that one goes to the women. Despite
what your respective governments may tell you, it's women who
provide the social fabric that make the modern organized world
possible.
Well. that's just silly. Men AND women contribute to the "fabric of
society". Women are as likely as men to be inclined towards
cooperation or inclined towards disruption. The patriarchy
magnifies the effect men have. The story that women provide some
kind of scaffolding for society is no better than CJ's idea that
women are secretly in charge of the world. It is an excuse for
excluding women from political power.
Human society is rather like that of equines. It's the mares that
keep the herd together. The stallions mostly keep to themselves,
providing protection from predators and when needed, stud services
Which makes perfect sense because we evolved from horses�oh, wait,
that's not right.
There are lots of social animals. Heard animals, like horses and
cattle, are not a particularly good model for comparison to human
societies. Nor are packs of dogs, wolves, hyenas etc..
In small numbers we are more like troops of other primates. In that
our social interactions and conventions are learned rather than
innate and that the ways we organize ourselves can change rapidly
(in less than a generation) in response to changing conditions. It
is the protean nature of our behavior that enables us to occupy
every spot on the planet and what makes this age the anthropocene.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/13/science/no-time-for-bullies-baboons-retool-their-culture.html
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From: guest (Jc)
, 118 months, post #12 |
Regardless of what is true or isn't it still boils down to
perception and what we all ultimately get from male and female
status. some men like myself like to believe women are weaker for
sexual arousal. The Humiliation and subjugation of a female is a
turn on for me for some reason. And imagining myself as a woman or
girl is very sexually exciting because of that. But in reality I
like the best of both worlds because I'm a switch when it comes to
submissive/dominant roles.
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From: Lady Sekhmet
, 118 months, post #13 |
Which makes perfect sense because we evolved from horses�oh, wait,
that's not right.
Don't cloud the issue with your fancy logic! No modern animal
"evolved" from another modern animal. However we share a common
ancestor (in this case Boreoeutheria) so some of what we are is in
them, and some of what they are is in us.
The point is, males tend to fight for dominance. In ancient
societies the successful male human kept harems. The fact that this
is no longer widely true in what we now call "civilized" society
does not wipe away the fact that when left to our own devices, this
is one of the natural human social structures. I should point out
that in equine society it is the stallion that keep a "harem" of
mares. It's no coincidence the terms are the same.
Also, it's worth pointing out that the very real race of
intelligent horses known as the Houyhnhnm
are clearly superior to mankind. Even Gulliver knew that!
But I digress... your argument about size fails because the scales
are not sufficiently different. We're not talking about an ant
surviving where an elephant would perish. The average size ratio
between men and women is only around 1.08. The physical difference
is in overall strength and endurance. I'm not saying that ALL men
thrown into the amazon forest alone will outlive ALL women. Just
that the odds are very clearly in the men's favor.
Take a look at primitive human societies in the rainforest... the
men hunt, the women maintain the village and raise the young. There
is a natural order for the two sexes. Equality between men and
women only arose because of industrialization when strength and
endurance were less important.
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From: guest (Lily)
, 118 months, post #14 |
Lady S you don't know what you are writing about.
your argument about size fails because the scales are not
sufficiently different. We're not talking about an ant surviving
where an elephant would perish. The average size ratio between men
and women is only around 1.08
Does "size" mean body mass? Height? Is this an average for human
populations? Is it a meaningful comparison for all populations?
Does it vary by ethnicity and economic system? Does it change in a
predictable way in response to environmental changes?
In ancient societies the successful male human kept harems
Which "ancient societies"? How many? Where were they? How ancient?
Sexual polygyny is hardly universal. Even in societies which
recognize or sanctioned it, it was (and is) the exception rather
than the rule.
As for "harems" and similar, the separation and seclusion of women
is about more things than sexual dominance and restricting the
access of subordinate males to breeding females. Furthermore, it is
a entirely a practice of agrarian "civilized" cultures.
And, of course, there are many societies in which polyandry
is practiced as either a formal, or informal but accepted, union.
You may be inclined to conflate promiscuity with polygamy. You may
decide to treat all "ancient" history as if time started in the
bronze age. You may disregard any evidence from biology or
anthropology which does not support your thesis.
And of course, when you are shown to be saying something foolish
you will post with a patronizing "Don't take it all so seriously,
couldn't you tell I was just kidding? After all I pretended that
Jonathan Swift intended Gulliver's Travels to be read as natural
history."
It is predictable and tiresome
.
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From: Lady Sekhmet
, 118 months, post #15 |
Lady S you don't know what you are writing about.
This is a poor means of refuting prior comments...
First off, I'm delighted you agree with me that a modern animal
cannot evolve from another modern animal which renders your we evolved from horses
comment purely argumentative.
Does "size" mean body mass? Height?
I am referring to the ratio of men's to women's height
which remains very close to 1.08 across populations globally.
Despite this highly consistent height ratio around the world, men
are far more than 8% stronger than women. According to the NIH
, women are approximately 52% and 66% as strong as men in the upper
and lower body respectively. Men are also stronger relative to lean
body mass.
Regarding Harems: Which "ancient societies"?
Let's see... there's the obvious Muslim societies which go back
thousands of years. Ancient Egyptians practiced it thousands of
years before that. The Aztecs, the Chinese, the Japanese, many
African nations... and lets not forget the Mormons! Though they are
a much more modern group of course. But I'd say the practice was
hardly uncommon wouldn't you?
Huh, what do you know. I guess my comments weren't so foolish after
all? Maybe they were valid and easily substantiated arguments?
Perhaps you should take a peek at that internet argument table and
pick one to come back with :)
And of course, when you are shown to be saying something foolish
you will post with a patronizing
Lily Lily Lily. Did you honestly feel I was patronizing you with
the Houyhnhnm reference... come on, really? This angered you? It
didn't make you smile maybe just a little bit? pffft... I bet
you're no fun at parties!
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From: guest (Me And Only Me)
, 118 months, post #16 |
Please do not take this down a path were the conversation gets
locked, like too many other ones have.
If the conversation title, or discussion upsets you, please just
move on and let those who want a good, friendly conversation
continue.
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From: guest (guest1)
, 118 months, post #17 |
Women are inferior to men...but it doesn't matter, they weren't
designed to compete with men, they were designed to compete with
other females for the males attention. The feminist argument and
equality argument is to make women feel better but in reality there
is no comparison.
The California law that says, if a women has more then 2 alcoholic
beverages and engages in sex and then following sex decides she
wasn't comfortable she can charge the male with rape. So two drinks
and your not responsible for your actions but a man can drink 70
beers and still has to be accountable...that law sealed the deal,
the equality movement is bs...
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From: guest (Me And Only Me)
, 118 months, post #18 |
Another point from a story like "Under The Moons Of Eden"�.Am sure
that most all of the soldiers saw themselves as superior to women,
or such a thought. Then half of them become women. Women with an
uncontrollable urge once a month to have sex until they become
pregnant.
They are in a hostile environment where physical strength is the
best skill to be had for building a home for all of them and these
new women do not have it, plus they are now all expectant mothers,
depending on men to build shelter, hunt, and provide for them.
While they are now the homemakers. They as women still have an
impotent role but it is more in support now and not leadership.
In the story the main man into a woman makes comment on how as a
man she was intrigued on how a woman could create life inside her,
but now as a woman was in awe at the power a man had over her. To
claim her, make her pregnant, make her his.
Would have like to have seen some tension in this story, and
others, between a man and new woman were he tells her, look, we
both graduated to be male, but when it came to one of us had to be
a woman, it was you who was chosen. So you lacked something as a
male that I did not, failed, and was put into the female roll, now
live with it and be my supportive wife.
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From: guest (Me And Only Me)
, 118 months, post #19 |
"they weren't designed to compete with men, they were designed to
compete with other females for the males attention. The feminist
argument and equality argument is to make women feel better but in
reality there is no comparison."
Nice input to the conversation.
I have stated kind of the same in other posts. Remove all things of
modern society and you go back to the basic male/female design. He
is in charge, the leader, the provider. She is the helper. He is
the hunter, she the gatherer.
Now carry that to something like this. A big strong male named John
is marooned on a deserted island with a big strong hand named
James. The island changes James into Jayne, a petite female.
To survive, John will have to do the majority of all the heavy
lifting, Jayne will naturally have to support John.
People may not like it, but that is nature, the natural design.
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From: cj
, 118 months, post #20 |
"... they weren't designed to compete with men, they were designed
to compete with other females for the males attention."
I never considered that argument before. I love it.
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