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From: guest (vup)
, 91 months, post #21 |
Walking in heels for prolonged periods would be next to impossible
without a lot of practice. The shift in centre of gravity would
make balancing very difficult especially initially.
Some good points but I disagree with this one. Little girls learn
quickly to walk in heels and I don't think men are any less
coordinated. It might take a little more concentration at first b/c
the male in question has lived longer w/out trying it, but as long
as you're on a flat surface, you'd only stumble occasionally at
first. Now if he tried to run
in high heels It would take him a few tries to get it right. Plus,
they make wider medium heels that makes things easier. Platforms
would be worse. You may as well be on short stilts. But, hey, guys
have worn high-heeled platform boots so again there's nothing
unique about women's balancing skills.
I never believe the (not funny) comedy cliché of a guy stumbling
like he's on a log roll or on a tight wire in an earthquake.
As for shift in center of gravity, it's like putting on a backpack.
You'll figure it out quick.
What would make a person in a different body clumsey (MtF or FtM)
is, if you've ever worked out or fatigued a certain muscle group
more than others, compound movements involving that muscle group
can be awkward on the first several tries and having someone else's
variance in strength compared to your own would make you klutzy for
a while.
IMHO
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From: guest (Bud)
, 91 months, post #22 |
CJ, I have faith in you that you will come up with something to add
to this discussion.
So men wouldn't have a hard time with walking in heels in female
bodies because their center of gravity in the female bodies would
help or them keep their balance?
I think eventually a man would get used to his female body and
would adapt to wearing a bra and panties or thong every day. He
would also probably get used to having female breasts and vagina
because the brain wiring would force himself to adapt and accept
it.
I think the most curious thing about adjustments would be sexual
orientation. What would happen to it? Would a straight man still be
straight in a female body or would the female body and female brain
he now possess adjust his sexual orientation so he would like men?
|
From: guest (Kathie)
, 91 months, post #23 |
There's an old SF book called "Steel Beach" that had gender
switches and talked about sexuality. I liked the author's idea
there: There are some people who always like one sex or the other
(regardless of their sex), there are some people who always like
the same sex as what they are and there are some people who always
like the opposite of what they are.
(FYI, I went with women before, but, honestly, no one turned me on.
Post transition, I became interested in men -- more so than I ever
was in women before)
|
From: Air Gear
, 91 months, post #24 |
I think my copy of Steel Beach is in the garage. I also think
saving the whales got a bit out of hand.
|
From: guest (guest)
, 91 months, post #25 |
Some excellent points by vup. I really like the thought of a man
becoming a clumsy woman as he comes to terms with things.
That could potentially become quite embarrassing for a man. If he
was confidant and suave in an way before to become a bit of a klutz
would be frustrating. Particularly in public. Privately it would be
more annoying than an embarrassment but falling around in front of
people might cause some red faces.
As for sexual orientation. Without any outside influences, like
some magic enchantment for example, I can't see a transformed man
rushing into bed with a man. I think if female hormones are going
to affect him in any way it would be to heighten his emotional
state. At first especially I would expect a LOT of tears.
I don't meant to paint women as emotionally unstable and. Quite the
opposite. I mean a man might find it more difficult to control or
understand his emotional state if he has spent a lifetime keeping
his emotions in check or repressed. This could lead to outbursts
and ups and downs for a while until he gets a handle on things.
|
From: guest (Superdude)
, 91 months, post #26 |
Re Sexual Orientation, since the OP is talking about body swap, i.e
being put into the body of an existing person, I am sure in this
particular transformation it is only logical for the character to
take the sexual orientation of the body that they are occupying,
whether slowly or immediately. Science has proven that homosexual
men and heterosexual women have symmetrical brains, with the right
and left hemispheres almost exactly the same size. Conversely,
lesbians and straight men have asymmetrical brains, with the right
hemisphere significantly larger than the left.
So while the situation in non-bodyswap transformation is more open
to interpretation, in a bodyswap situation it is more likely that
whoever consciousness being put in a body will follow the sexual
desire of that body.
Science aside, it is also very dangerous to argue that the sexual
orientation of the body can be change by the consciousness that
occupies it. This suggests that the homophobic people are right
,that we can choose our sexual orientation because is a conscious
choice by the mind rather than something dictated by factors we
can't control such as our genes and brain structure. We don't want
to be on the same page with homophobic people don't we?
|
From: guest (guest)
, 91 months, post #27 |
No we certainly do not want to side with any homophobic
presumptions. However in a body swap situation, Lets assume you are
correct in that the likelihood is that you will follow the sexual
desire of the host body. Would the male brain which makes up the
identity of the man. Memories, desires, likes/dislikes etc. not
play a big factor in too.
In theory could the man's brain in the female body tell the body
that it wants to be with the same person it was attracted to
before? Would that be enough to over-ride a built in attraction?
It could lead to an interesting struggle itself. It's possible both
sides could balance out and the person becomes bisexual. Or a long
term internal battle might be fought. Maybe there will be no clear
winner and the two sides cancel each other out and the person
identifies as asexual.
This is all purely speculative but its fun to speculate!
|
From: guest (Bud)
, 91 months, post #28 |
It's a body swap so there isn't a male brain in a female's body.
You can say that the essence/soul of a man is in a woman's body but
he won't have a male brain in the female body. The brain would be
female since the body is he swaps with is female.
Maybe it would be like Please Come Back Mister. The female body
would make you hot around men but your memories of being a man
would fight the physical aspect of your female body including the
vagina and boobs.
So how long would it take most men that have never cross dressed to
be able to walk in heels if they swapped with females? A day or
two, weeks, months, or years?
Just imagine the tightness of the clothes too. Men don't really
wear tight clothes like women do unless you're a guy that likes
skinny jeans or wears tight t shirts to show off the muscles. Women
wear a lot of tight clothes to show off their butts, legs,
stomachs, and breasts. They also wear low cut shirts as well.
Having child bearing hips and curves would also be something to
consider as an adjustment.
|
From: guest (Gypsy)
, 91 months, post #29 |
the psychological aspects of losing a person's comfort zone- body,
reflection, etc
to me the idea of the struggle to regain or retain a sense of self
is vital to a story and a struggle
if the person makes the change and simply flips personalities then
I can not find an interest, and I am done with the story
|
From: guest (JosieChung)
, 91 months, post #30 |
> I really like the thought of a man becoming a clumsy woman as
he comes
> to terms with things.
I am just a sample size of one (me) and I have memories of
identifying as a transgender female since 5th grade in elementary
school. For as long as I could remember, I had always been clumsy
and just accepted it. After my initial newness to heels and other
traditional women's garb wore off, it was quickly noticed by the
few people I'm out around that I'm actually much less clumsy when
presenting as a woman. It's not even heels or movement-limiting
dresses; I'm consistently less clumsy just puttering around the
apartment in a woman's t-shirt and jeans. But when circumstances
force me back into male clothes, I'm clumsier again... even, I've
noticed, when it's just me alone
in the apartment
in casual men's jeans/pants and a shirt.
Is it some psychological reminder to myself about my profound
discomfort in a male role? Is it evidence of my consciousness/mind
trying to emulate a male physicality that runs contrary
from what is stamped in my female-imprinted physical brain structure
? I honestly don't know.
I offer this anecdotal experience (albeit singular) as an
thread/seed... Maybe an author could run with this, or a variation
in this, as a char cater adjusts or doesn't adjust to the
physicality and social role of their new body?
|
From: cj
, 91 months, post #31 |
Bud -- remind me not to bet against you.
Ah, heels. Vup states that little girls seem to take to heels
rather quickly. But I do wonder about that. I've seen little girls
in their mothers' high heels struggle to move, mostly sliding their
feet in the heels. But then I've also seen young ladies in short
and wide heels with no problems whatsoever. Of course, I've also
seen plenty of boys and men wear shoes and boots with short and
wide heels as well, with no problems.
I think the problems start to be evident when someone who is not
used to heels (little to no experience in work boots, dress shoes,
formal shoes or cowboy boots) suddenly has to deal with the extreme
angles of 4 or 5 inch tall and very narrow, stiletto-type heels. It
is an angle that the experienced male is likely not used to working
with. These aren't the type of heels that a woman just throws on
and masters the first time. These are the types of heels that a
woman works her way (and confidence level) up to. Not only that,
but a woman who has been living and working with her body for
years, has grown up learning and knowing (subconsciously) the
physics and dimensions of her own body. She will have learned how
to adjust her gait for different geometry and any restrictions that
heels present to her movements and balance.
In other words, my opinion is that a man would not be able to
readily jump into a woman's body, or suddenly become a woman
physically, and then be able to manage towering stiletto heels. But
he should be able to manage a short, and maybe even a medium heel,
especially if the heel is wider than a stiletto. But a bit of
practice, and he'd soon be able to work most any heel he chooses.
Now... if a man's self / spirit / soul was swapped into a woman's
body... and her physical brain was still resident there... well,
then he might have her learned skill with heels and may take to
them immediately.
And this is where the next part of my post goes.
The way that a man becomes a woman could have a great effect on
everything that we are discussing here. If it is simply his essence
or soul or spirit... the man himself as an ethereal thing, then the
woman's physical brain is in play. I would think that he would then
have not only access to her memories (which may feel primary and
more dominant than his own), but he will probably have her learned
skills and that subconscious body-knowledge. how she knows her own
body's limits and measurements, and abilities. These could highly
influence gait, comfort, desire, preferences, comportment, among
may other things (including personality).
If the man's brain is physically moved into a woman's body... well,
I think that there are some parts of the woman's brain that would
need to remain, those that are most tied to body control. So there
could be some residual effect as listed above. But such a transfer
is likely to necessitate the man's brain re-learning a great many
things, including locomotion. So it's difficult to even guess on
how much of that would come from the previous host, and how much
was learned by the man-now-woman.
What about transferring via some type of mind-swapping helmet?
Well, that's real fun, because this could simply be tricking the
woman's brain to believe that she is the man, and to recall his
memories. She might still be herself, but just think that she's the
man. And since a thing is basically overwriting the existing female
brain, a very complex organ, the woman's memories may still find a
way to remain or return, and then the real fun would be the
"swapping" back, when the two are "returned" to their own selves.
Then the man would have the memories of being in the woman's body,
even though he never really left his own. Now the real interesting
thing to contemplate is just how much of the woman is over-written
by the man... will his preference for female sexual partners
overpower her desire to be taken by a man? Will his horrible sense
of style be inflicted upon the woman? And what happens if the
woman's preference for male sexual partners is so strong that when
they're returned, that strong preference is then written back to
the man? What if he enjoys her sense of style and flair and that is
lost when they swap back?
Now, if he woke up a woman, in an alternate reality where he'd been
born a woman... but remembers being a man, and never a woman... I
would think that such a man-turned-woman would have little
difficulty in working his "new" body, unless he tried to think
about it too much. The same for clothing and cosmetics and
selecting appropriately matching pieces and accessories.
And then we have hormones... I've heard plenty of relatable stories
from those who have transitioned (I believe one of our posters here
alludes to this as well) who state that the introduction of female
hormones has caused them some real emotional swing, much like a
teenage girl going through puberty. I'm sure that that is partly
their mind, but also their body going through the changes in
hormone levels, but perhaps a man being swapped into a female body
by whatever means, may have some wild swings that they are not used
to. But once they adapt, things will be a bit more "normal" for
them. Though into an existing and mature woman's body, the swings
may not be as large (though to the men, they might be) and the
adaptation faster.
Just some things to consider from my way too curious mind.
|
From: cj
, 91 months, post #32 |
JosieChung -- certainly something to consider. I hope that you
don't dwell obsessively about those things, but I do hope that you
do indulge on exploring the cause / reason behind the trait.
It certainly is interesting. But then the human mind is still quite
a complex mystery to us. All the simple things that make it work,
but how it all works together to do the things it does...
|
From: guest (Bud)
, 91 months, post #33 |
The soul swap method seems less dangerous and complicated than an
actual brain swap. Having a male brain inserted into a woman's body
just doesn't seem right to me because you're messing with nature
and the natural order of things. A soul swap probably wouldn't be
perfect either but I think it would fewer negative side effects and
consequences. I guess a bad thing that could happen is how a male's
soul would fight the female body over sexual preference and
feelings. A male soul in a female body would have to deal with
female hormones and a female brain. The body would be telling the
man that he is supposed to get all gushy and hot around men but his
memories of being a man would fight it.
It would be so weird because which would win the soul or the body
and brain?
And when it comes to heels, it does make sense that maybe a man
wouldn't struggle that much with heels since he would technically
have a female brain if it was a soul swap or transformation and not
an actual brain swap.
Isn't Lalola an example of how the female body gave Lalo some
hidden mannerisms and habits from the previous owner (Daniela)? He
wore red heels a lot before he even knew he was in the body of
Daniela right? So couldn't that be a case of residual memories left
over from the female body?
I think in Pimmala, the witch that curses the main character puts
an extra spell on him that makes it where his mannerisms are girly
thus making it where he walks flawlessly as a woman and in heels.
|
From: guest (Brain Swap)
, 91 months, post #34 |
I don't think brain swap can be done since brain size & head size
vary between humans. It has to be soul transfer or memory transfer.
|
From: cj
, 91 months, post #35 |
Given the right male and female donor, a brain swap could
be possible. But there are so many things that would make it not
so preferred. The scars, the amount of work the neurosurgeons would
have to do to connect it all up, the recovery and therapy to
retrain the brain for the new body after such trauma, preventing
rejection of the new brain by the host body, everyone thinking that
you are the former occupant, and so on.
But yes, I too prefer a "magical" swap from one physical vessel to
another. I had a semi lucid dream a bit back where I was occupying
someone else's body, and then somehow the person I had "swapped"
with and I were cut off from our own bodies when the tether that
held our soul to our own body was severed. Our souls now floating
freely, but still within the other's body. But the living body I
was in freaked out looking for her soul, as its severed tether
touched my soul, I tried to calm it, but it was a young body and
very frightened. It tried to connect to my soul, and I gently
refused that connection. But I began to wonder what it'd be like to
be that girl, not just in her body... but part of it. And then
didn't refuse the connection, but instead welcomed it. I could feel
more and more of her memories as the tether was "healed", they were
over-powering my own memories and became dominant as I was
connected bit by bit to her brain. I could still feel my own
memories from my life as a boy and a man, but they seemed like
distant echos, ghosts of a past that I had to work to retrieve.
Eventually, I realized that I was beginning to take on much of her
personality, her habits, her quirks and traits. That's when I
started to become frightened, that I was going to lose my own self,
to be replaced by her... that I was going to become her completely
and that I would disappear.
That's when I woke up. So I tried to imagine further into that
dream. That I'd shake my head as I realized that I wasn't going to
disappear, that I was still me. Of course by "me" I was thinking of
myself as her. My spirit... my soul was now completely integrated
into her body, I had now taken her place completely. I considered
myself -- I knew that I was now this girl, I had no doubt who I
was... but I also know, that even as I remember everything about
growing up as this girl... those memories were mine, as if I myself
had lived them, I knew that I had not always been this girl, that I
had been someone else... but it felt completely different, as if it
had been a previous life... a life separate from my this life as
this girl.
Now that would be a trip to experience... but it's dang close to
identity death, and there wouldn't be much struggle to adjust to
the new life, if during integration into your new body, you became
connected to her brain completely and all of her memories and
skills and such became yours.
|
From: guest
, 91 months, post #36 |
Um... I really don't think walking in heels has anything to do with
having a male or female brain or psyche. I think it's just like
riding a bicycle -- some would pick it up fast and get used to it
and some would not and some would just hate it. As someone earlier
said, heels used to be for men only (just like pink used to be for
boys).
This is why some women almost always wear flats and not heels --
they hate them and some just CAN'T walk in them.
I remember the first time a GF of mine saw me walking in heels, she
literally said "HOW do you walk in those things?!?" She could never
wear heels more than about 1 inch.
|
From: guest (JosieChung)
, 91 months, post #37 |
Yeah, I don't think "skillfully wearing heels" vs. "not" is baked
into anyone's gender & brain. But I do think that many of society's
expectations of how each of us are obligated/supposed to fulfill
our assigned gender roles gets absorbed & internalized early on in
our development. And as adults, the pressure to fulfill all
elements of those roles can be substantial, which may help explain
the relief/enjoyment many feel when they can temporarily stop (or
even just fantasize about stopping) performing their assigned part.
Or how a significant minority fantasizes about temporarily trying
on the role of the "other side." :)
Whatever the reasons for my own reactions when in male vs. female
clothing (or behaviors, interests, activities, hobbies, etc.), I am
certain it happens because I have been socialized that certain
things are "female" and others are "male." My women's sneakers are
negligibly different in appearance from my men's (sized narrow)
sneakers and are even made by the same company (this was my
purposeful choice). That I feel more relaxed, more comfortable,
"more myself" wearing the women's sneakers doesn't logically make
sense... but even though I am aware of it, it doesn't change how I physically & emotionally react.
I think who we are as individuals is a complex mix of hardware
(flesh, physical neural structure, hormones) and software (our
sense of self, our experiences, our expectations, our workarounds
for our physical inefficiencies/deficiencies). It makes sense (to
me anyway) that running the same "operating system" or software on
different hardware, even just slightly different, can often produce
observably different results and behaviors. Not necessarily better,
or worse... just different.
CJ
- I'm not sure I dwell obsessively on it, but my brain is always
active, often hyperactive. If I wasn't thinking about this, I'd be
mentally dissecting something else. Often, my brain is churning
away on a few somethings else.
|
From: cj
, 91 months, post #38 |
"I don't think "skillfully wearing heels" vs. "not" is baked into
anyone's gender & brain."
Probably the only thing that would have bearing on heels when
swapping genders, would be if the man was swapped into the woman's
body... with her brain. Then it is conceivable that the man would
have all of the woman's memories and the learned skill of actually
working towering stilettos without any practice of his own. You
know, if the woman had learned to deal with them prior to the swap.
JosieChung -- Good to know you're not negatively obsessed. I do
understand the brain-on, always-thinking about something thing.
Makes for some sleepless nights when you can't turn it down.
|
From: guest (Bud)
, 91 months, post #39 |
Maybe it's my heel/feet/leg fetish talking but I don't see why
people hate on heels so much. Women look great in them. Yes, I know
they cause pain and I would never force a woman to wear them or
anything that makes her feel pain or uncomfortable. But if she
wants to, why not?
There are some pros for a guy if he was turned into a woman and
chose to wear heels. He likely wouldn't have to have to worry about
tying them unless they had laces and also wouldn't have to worry
about socks either.
And with the memories aspect, perhaps it would be like the movie
Frequency. You would have your own memories but also the memories
of the woman whose body you're in. That could be helpful but also
too much since yes it would help you perform female tasks like
walking in heels, putting a bra on, and using a tampon. But it
could be too much since you would remember all the times the woman
had been intimate with a man. Can you imagine remembering that in
your mind even though it wasn't you?
This is somewhat of a rhetorical question but why are men so
obsessed with heels when it comes to women? Is it just a part of
nature? I know some guys will say crap like "oh well I don't care
what she wears or I love seeing her in her birthday suit" but I
smell lies. I would say 90 percent of straight guys love it when a
woman gets dressed up and all pretty just for them. Guys like the
effort and the fact that a lady did all that preparation and work
just to look nice for them.
And again, women don't have to do that for guys. They shouldn't be
forced either. However, if they want to dress to impress their
special guy or man then why not?
|
From: guest (PassingThrough)
, 91 months, post #40 |
The physical stuff makes for a fun read, but honestly, people get
used to stuff. Clothing, longer hair, being shorter, even personal
hygiene and bathroom issues-- give it a couple of months (although
periods will always be annoying. As a previous poster pointed out,
the majority of women aren't thrilled when that time of the month
comes, and some suffer serious PMS/cramps issues).
What I'd like to see more of would be stories where the newly
transformed deals with the social issues of being female. Women
frequently act differently because they have to. Even simple stuff
like how to get your point across in an office meeting is colored
by being a woman. Growing up, boys can run around pretty much
anywhere, girls quickly learn that their world is more constrained.
And so on. I suspect a former male would have a hard go of it at
first until he, now she, learned how to be more female in her
interactions.
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