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From: guest (Shougo)
, 95 months, post #1 |
Is it just me or does a lot of tf fiction involving males and
females contain much sexism?
I read tg tf story after story of women being treated like dainty
flowers and men being either neglected or treated like crap.
Does anyone else notice both the misogyny and misandry in tf tg
fiction? Or is it all me?
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From: guest (dolphin)
, 95 months, post #2 |
Absolutely, and I'm glad someone else noticed that too.
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From: guest (dolphin)
, 95 months, post #3 |
I mean... bimbo-fication. Wow.
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From: guest (Air Gear)
, 95 months, post #4 |
Well, one thing I noticed about a lot about a lot of the Lalola
series is that even when the men in the story are turned into
women, it's still about the men ... who are now women.
In most of them, we find out it actually a body swap in effect
(which seems quite unfair on the women whose bodies were stolen as
presumably they had nothing to do with the mess that led to the
whole situation in the first place) and they often end up at the
periphery of the story at best.
In at least a couple of cases, they only really turn up right at
the end as kind of ludicrously terrible sexist men who just seem to
be interested in scoring with as many women as possible.
Fortunately, a lot of the series give them more screen time and
portray them better.
I guess that was one advantage of having the show done 13 different
times, there were a lot of different spins on the idea so some
things tried were bound to work better than others.
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From: guest (CelebSwap)
, 95 months, post #5 |
That's something I've noticed. Really weird stuff like all of a
sudden being a slut or something dumb like that.
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From: guest (Zhang Fei Fan)
, 95 months, post #6 |
@Air Gear,
Correct me if I am wrong (I don't know the languages!), but I think
in Lalola cases, in most versions the woman who Lalo swapped with
was also cheating on their boyfriend and therefore their boyfriend
went to the witch and put the curse. Neither the boyfriend nor
Romina (Lalo's ex who also went to the witch) realised that it was
a actually a swap.
In the original version (and maybe in some other versions too), the
f2m character actually slept with both men & women. So yeah, an
even worse version of Lalo.
I believe in the original version the intention is just to justify
Lola's decision to stay as woman. After all, the woman in Lalo's
body already stating that he wouldn't want to swap back if given
the chance, because of his good life now, so there would be no
guilt in Lola's part for wanting to stay as woman.
I think for general audience, they would find that it is reasonable
that an f2m character wants to stay the way he is because of his
new found power and perks. For the m2f character to prefer to stay
the way she is, a stronger justification is needed, otherwise the
audience (especially in macho culture like Latin America) would not
buy it. I think that "She found true love and therefore she prefers
to stay as a woman" does not sounds convincing to audience in
society with high gender inequality so they need to add another
reason and in the original Lalola they made the f2m character
become worse so that Lola would be so disgusted that "she found out
she does not want to become Lalo anymore"
I think if we look at the other versions in which the characters
decided not to swap back, the versions in Europe normally doesn't
portray the f2m characters in a bad light. Presumably because the
lower gender inequality there, the audience would not have a hard
time to believe that a man who has become a woman would not want to
change back if she has a chance. After all, if deciding which
gender you want to live as for the rest of your life is just a
matter of preference rather than a matter of opportunity and power,
then both decisions (to stay or to change back) seems reasonable.
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From: guest
, 95 months, post #7 |
I feel like for the last 3 years there is more and more story "From
dominant to submissive", now 80% of story is about a man who become
submissive, because he is turned into a woman, like there was a
rule where MALE=STRONG, FEMALE=WEAK. I find it particulary strange
in a world where we try to reach gender equality.
Am I biased to think that a couple of year ago there was way less
story like that ?
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From: guest (Nuke)
, 95 months, post #8 |
Dom/sub is a big chunk of porn and probably isn't going to become
unpopular ever. Better get used to it bleeding into your fetishes.
On bad writing: we don't get to experience what the other half
lives and it's easy to just write some superficial bullshit about
dimorphism and "girls love pink and cocks". Most fiction is
complete trash, transformation fetish fiction is no different.
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From: guest (Air Gear)
, 95 months, post #9 |
... and given it was blue for girls and pink for boys until
relatively recently makes it just that bit more ridiculous ...
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From: guest
, 95 months, post #10 |
I've never understood the reasoning behind why Lalo remains as Lola
in the Lalolas. People say "he fell in love in his female body".
Yes that's true but let's be realistic about it. In the first part
of the series, he tried desperately alongside his confidant Grace
to find the witch that hexed him. I will admit that he eventually
gave up but did he really? He saw his own male body walking around
in public and tried to chase down his male body. He obviously
wanted to get his body back even after he is proposed to. And then
at the end, he meets his former male body and decides no? I say
bullcrap.
It's a little sexist toward men because it says that he had to be
turned into a woman and have his manhood taken away from him in
order to become a better person.
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From: guest (vup)
, 95 months, post #11 |
Sexism, yes. Misogyny/misandry? Not in the literal sense of there
being a hatred for either gender.
I think the nature of any form of amateur writing is that it tends
to be a bit jejune. The exaggeration of these traits is intended to
underscore the fantasy/fantastic nature of a scenario which is
supposed to have some sort of kink appeal.
Then again, I've read some fiction by people who consider
themselves transgender where the transformation isn't the beginning
of an inner conflict for the main character, but rather a
resolution to one.
---
"given it was blue for girls and pink for boys until relatively
recently"
I don't know anyone who takes that for a given. Do you have a
source on that? I'd love to be able to cite it!
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From: guest (guessed)
, 95 months, post #12 |
"given it was blue for girls and pink for boys until relatively
recently"
I don't know anyone who takes that for a given. Do you have a
source on that? I'd love to be able to cite it!
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/when-did-girls-start-wearing-pink-1370097/?no-ist
Per (Shougo) #1 Does anyone else notice both the misogyny and misandry in tf tg
fiction? Or is it all me?
I can't think of an example of misandry in a FTM story, but
diminished social status (real or perceived) is part of the
"transformed to teach him a lesson" trope in a lot of MTF stories.
It hard to tell, sometimes, if such a story is about
a misogynist or the work of
a misogynist -- or both -- but it is often the point of the story.
The stuff on Fictionmania and similar sources also includes a lot
of forced-fem and humiliation stories. That is a lot harder to
parse as sexist. There is a Br'er Rabbit quality to a lot of those
stories "Oh please, please don't make me wear that (obsessively
detailed description of a unambiguously gendered garment or
cosmetic product)" "Please don't make me put my mouth on that
(obsessively detailed description of a body part)!"
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From: guest (Kathy)
, 95 months, post #13 |
My understanding is that one of the theories is that it is exactly
the perception of these type of differences between men and women
that often leads to TG fetishes. If a man, for example, considers
himself more submissive than men "should be" or wishes he could be
more like that, he might end up being interested in material that
depicts that. *IF* (and I don't claim to know one way or the other)
this is true, it would not be surprising that TF fiction would
reflect that preconception.
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From: guest (TGJunkie)
, 95 months, post #14 |
I think the important thing to remember here is that these stories
are often sexual fantasies (ie. porn) written by human beings
(often male) who may or may not share the same world view as you or
me. Also, remember that males and females exist only for sexual
reproduction, otherwise we'd all be sexless beings which reproduce
asexually. There probably exist some mental differences between
males and females due to evolution, but there is a lack of
scientific evidence about what those differences are exactly. Many
people consider it dangerously sexist to even research such a
topic.
Do some sexist people write porn? Yes.
Do some people who hate men write porn? Yes.
Do some people who hate women write porn? Yes.
So really, who cares? Just read stories by a better author who
shares your world view. If you pay someone, they'll write whatever
you want.
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From: guest (joeberan)
, 95 months, post #15 |
yes with an asterix.
- I'll just say that a lot of these fantasies (everything from
turning into an animal to turning into a woman to turning into a
slut to turning into a bimbo) involve the protagonist undergoing
these transformations. The protagonist is a stand in for the reader
(most likely male, let's be honest) being transformed. Therefore
when this sexism is present, doesn't it suggest that not only does
the reader either believe or want that sexism to be true, but also
wants to be on the wrong (see negative) side of that sexism?
Example, a guy gets off on a fantasy story of a guy being turned
into a bimbo, and fantasizes about becoming a bimbo himself.
Therefore doesn't that sexism actually apply to the reader himself,
desiring to be in that sexist female role? To me this says
something more interesting about people and these fetishes than a
blanket label of "sexism" does.
- If you're looking for a fetish that is really has a sharp sexist
tone (at least more of it than TG in my opinion) I suggest you look
into the size fetish communities. The giant woman/shrunken woman
divide and the way it plays out in the kinds of fantasies people
create in those communities in terms of men suck/women suck is
often pretty rough. There's still good stuff there (in my opinion)
where there's less of a sexist element to it, but it's more rare.
I could probably bloviate on this for hours as I am fascinated by
the reason I (and anyone reading this) gets off on this stuff, but
as I said at the beginning yes, there's a lot of sexism there. I
think the best thing to do is find the things that you enjoy and
consume them more. If you get off on stuff where the scrawny nerd
becomes a tough muscular heroine, go read/create/roleplay that.
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From: guest (vup)
, 95 months, post #16 |
Thanks for the link guessed!
There was a documentary in the 80's I believe called something like
"Transformation: Man into Woman" IIRC. They followed a guy who
worked at an Architecture firm in the year-long period he was
transitioning. The men in the company that were interviewed seemed
uncomfortably tolerant, confused but open-minded, rather
blind-sided, then again, they had a camera on them in a
professional environment so who knows exactly what they're real
feelings were. The only person who criticized him was a very butch
women who frankly said how she was kind of insulted being that
there's more to being a woman than just putting on a pretty dress
and flouncing about in an exaggerated manner. She herself was
sitting on her drafting stool with her knees so exaggeratedly far
apart you'd have thought she was a baseball catcher, but she did
have a point. The new she had affected this Marilyn Monroe/Carol
Channing sort of mannerism that real "gg's" just don't.
Similarly, I think people who write a lot (not all) of these
stories resort to that sort of exaggeration such that it comes off
kind of cartoonishly comical and ridiculous. I don't think people
should be offended that it's insensitive or hateful. It's just
inaccurate because of fantasy value or amateurish poetic license.
IMHO
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From: guest (Zeal)
, 95 months, post #17 |
I tend to dislike the tg stories having... Let's say a straight guy
switching bodies with a woman and suddenly feeling a 'craving' for
men. I've been finding a lot of stories like that lately.
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From: Air Gear
, 95 months, post #18 |
For all the stick the Portuguese version of Lalola gets, it's the
most realistic (I know, I know) of the series as to how most men
would behave in this situation. He doesn't want to stay that way,
shows no more interest in men than he did before and never wavers
from the course of trying to get himself back to what he'd like for
the many decades he'd been alive as opposed to a few months
(alternate ending notwithstanding).
When it's brought up that it's not like the others, well that's
fine, there's 12 other versions, most of which more or less follow
the original template. However, precisely for that reason, I was
relieved to see something different tried for once - like what
could quite possibly actually happen.
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From: guest (KJ)
, 95 months, post #19 |
Know that I do not want Political Correctness invading stories that
I enjoy
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From: guest (Contra)
, 95 months, post #20 |
All the stories in which the transformed person immediately adapt &
change to another person, or doesn't adapt at all, are equally bad.
These 2 extremes are not realistic at all. Like it or not, some
part of ourselves is determined by factor outside our control such
as genes. For example, in term of sexual orientation scientist has
found that right hemispheres of the brains of the lesbians and
heterosexual men have slightly greater volumes than their left
hemispheres. But the left and right hemispheres of gay men and
heterosexual women are symmetrical.
A good transformation story is one in which the author take into
account that the character, at least in the initial stage, still
behave like his old self because of his memory, but in the long
run, the effect of the new body will begin to kick in. Instant
change of personality or "never adapt" story is never realistic. Of
course, there are exceptions. If there is in-universe explanation
for the character's sudden change of personality, like the curses
in Lalola Philippines, then it can be accepted. On the other end,
if the story take place in a short time frame, perhaps it is
realistic that the person hasn't adapt to his new body yet when the
story end.
Talking about Lalola, I think the Belgium and Russian are the most
realistic. The behavioural change are slow and believable, and the
series take into account real life problem like the lack
identification document. The Lolas in other versions drive even
though they are technically without license, but the Lolas in these
2 version don't. And after the Russian found the original owner of
her body, it is even shown that she begin to use the identification
document of that person, even though the name is different from the
name she gives herself.
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