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From: guest
, 106 months, post #41 |
AT JD
I don't think the soul can be anymore disproven than it can be
proven.
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From: guest
, 106 months, post #42 |
Mr. Rams:
"Anyone who hates dogs has no soul."
Funny I say the same thing about people who hate cats, lul. Anyway
I hate dogs because they have no sense of personal space, they're
very needy, very loud, often uncleanly, they like to lick, they
like to bark, and they'r hyper active. They honestly give me a head
ache. I just find them gross and annoying, but it's a matter of
personal preference, I prefer animals that like to be petted every
once in a while but can be independent and not follow you
everywhere to kingdom come.
Oh and one more thing I forgot to add, I have actually babysat dogs
before, holy f**k was that annoying. I remember one dog wouldn't
stop whining and wanted to get up in bed with me which I absolutely
do not allow animals in the bed with me, especially dogs since they
want to lick you. So I had to listen to him whining all night long.
so indeed I do hate dos but I do have a soul. :)
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From: cj
, 106 months, post #43 |
"... clearly after a soul swap, you will still be you, unaffected
from the swap. If your assumption is that everything is controlled
by the brain (i.e. soul doesn't exist) then a soul swap will result
in no change..."
I'm not sure how you're getting that. I think most would define a
soul as the essence of a person... their "core" (values,
personality, mores... and sometimes even memories). But when you
hold up this to Holly's arguments about the mechanics, computing,
thinking differences between the male and female brains... You
still then have a swapped soul that "feels" one way, but may think
(and act) another. It's like running a Windows application on a
Linux machine... The program is the same, but it might work a bit
differently than you're used to.
I've been thinking that if a soul were to swap bodies, that their
core wold remain true... but since memories are merely repeated and
reinforced pathways and connections in the brain... would the
soul's memories have a chance of lasting long? I feel that few of
the soul's memories would last long, and soon that soul would start
to shift towards becoming a new person altogether. Not the old
"soul A + body A" or "soul B + body B", but a new "soul B + body A"
combination. They'll have almost exclusively, the body's memories
and influences of those memories, the physical and reasoning
actions will mainly be influenced by the body (physical brain), but
their core... they type of person they are, would be mostly
influenced by their soul.
But until we have indisputable proof as to the areas and extents
that a soul influences who we are, we're all free to guess,
imagine, hypothesize, fantasize... and write fiction. :-)
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From: Holly Dunn
, 106 months, post #44 |
In the 1950's mainstream stories about gay, lesbian, and
transgendered people were rarely if ever published. If they had,
such stories would have someone going through some temptation and
ordeal, praying, facing an ultimate temptation, and then becoming
straight because God somehow fixed their soul.
But in 2015, one of the reasons that Gay, Lesbian, and Transgedered
are protected classes under the law is that there is scientific
basis that people are biologically born that way.
Should you switch your essence, which would at minimum be your
memories, into another body, you would have the same sexual
orientation of that brain/body. Should a zealot's essence get
placed into a gay or gender dysphoric person, they will fell those
feelings. They may fight them, but they will feel them.
These scientific revelations are why the movie "Sam" and the
majority of the "Lalola" series are written the way they are. At
first the person resists, but they have new desires and they come
to termswith being the person that they are.
They wouldn't have been written that way in the 1950's.
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From: Holly Dunn
, 106 months, post #45 |
Here is an excerpt from an article and a link to it. It's easy to
read and not full of mumbo jumbo.
"The na�ve hypothesis would be that the brains of homosexual men
might look more like heterosexual women and vice versa for
homosexual women. In fact, this is exactly what has been found, for
the most part, not just in structural measures but also in measures
of brain activity."
From the article : Sexual orientation � wired that way
Even things like the smell of testosterone and male pheromones set
off a physical reaction in straight women and gay men. This sexual
reaction to smell has nothing to do with the presence of a soul any
more than an allergy would cause a person to sneeze.
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From: cj
, 106 months, post #46 |
My, "they type of person they are, would be mostly influenced by their
soul."
should have read, "the type of person they are at their most core level,
would be mostly influenced by their soul. But the carnal desires and physical needs will still be ruled by
the body (and the way the brain and body are wired)."
Sorry if I left some ambiguity or confusion there.
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From: guest (JD)
, 106 months, post #47 |
@ Guest 41: Of course souls existence cannot be disproven, it lives
in the realm of things that cannot be disproven, just like the idea
of god, supernatural, soul and many other beliefs that are not
falsifiable, i.e. there is not a test or experiment you can do to
falsify the belief. And there is not a clear definition of these
things either.
@ CJ: "It's like running a Windows application on a Linux
machine... The program is the same, but it might work a bit
differently than you're used to."
The problem with this argument is, you are assuming there is a
software for people, there is not. Unlike a computer where the
switches are fixed and relations that run the logic gates are
different (i.e. software), the human brain, or any biological brain
for that matter, functions as a dynamic system. Neurons literally
switch every millisecond in your brain creating new paths.
Neurotransmitters are gating the voltage potential at the neural
interface. Some neurons say fire, some say don't, and if a
threshold is reached the neuron fires and releases more
transmitters... There is not a software, the brain is the software
and the hardware...
"I've been thinking that if a soul were to swap bodies, that their
core wold remain true... but since memories are merely repeated and
reinforced pathways and connections in the brain... would the
soul's memories have a chance of lasting long?"
As you suggested, the memories are literal, physical connections in
the brain. So how does a "soul" access to it? Science is 100 times
more certain that memories and personality are a part of your
physical brain than your sexual orientation, which also is. So if
you believe a "soul swap" will result in your sexual orientation to
be transformed into the new bodies orientation, rest assured that
your memories, and your personality will be too. And hence, if you
define yourself by your memories, personality and experience, you
never switched anything! You are still you, in your own body with
the same brain with the same experiences and everything... Hence
under these assumptions a soul swap is impossible (cause as soon as
you assume your your brain, a soul doesn't exist, or needed).
The whole problem with this debate is, we are arguing over
something that doesn't have clear definitions, whose existence is
in question... This is like debating who would win if Magneto and
an MRI fought... Magnetos existence defies physical rules, so to
explain the result of the fight using physics is wrong! You can
imagine whatever you like... One thing I hate with modern SciFy
stuff is that they try to explain stuff, and they are so wrong that
it pisses me off. If you are writing a story about something
impossible, don't try to reason it, it will not work. Leave it
mystical. The thrill is not in whether the story can actually
happen, it is the story itself...
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From: cj
, 106 months, post #48 |
"... we are arguing over something that doesn't have clear
definitions..."
Who's arguing. I'm merely tossing my opinions, hypotheticals, and
ideas into a discussion. I can no more prove or disprove souls or
what they are and are capable of, than anyone else at this point in
time. :-)
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From: Holly Dunn
, 106 months, post #49 |
JD said..."The thrill is not in whether the story can actually
happen, it is the story itself..."
Of course. But in storytelling while there is a suspension of
disbelief, you'll might lose some credibility if you sail your boat
over the edge of the ocean or the Earth is rotating around the sun.
So much TG fiction has characters immediately enslaved to
bimbofication with no free will or acting as if they were still men
with no feminine influence.
Reading up on the science of sexual orientation and the brain will
only give writers a greater understanding of the human condition
that will allow you to write about stages of true growth for your
characters.
Transgender people have been scorned by good, even religious
people. But in the last 20 years science has explained who we are a
lot more than has happened in the last 2000 years.
A typical TG story is after transformed "A spell caused me to think
this way and I have no control. I am going to have sex with every
man I see." or "I am a man and despite my female body I will always
act like a barbarian."
Without judging anyone for writing indulgent or fetish fiction,the
true "story" of someone transformed would start with them rejecting
but ultimately accepting what they are.
That is basic story structure.
Reading mainstream news articles on human sexuality and brain
variation from the last 20 years versus philosophers from the
1600's will only add to the depth of your storytelling. It will add
to the story itself.
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From: guest (JD)
, 106 months, post #50 |
@ Holly Dunn:
I %100 agree with you. The captions and most stories out there are
very shallow and lack depth. I agree that people should expand the
emotional and psychological effects of such changes which makes a
story interesting.
What I meant with "The thrill is not in whether the story can
actually happen, it is the story itself..." is that sometime people
go like: "oh yeah we are fairies, cause we can vibe with the
universe and weird quantum stuff, therefore we have magical
powers", or "Your soul is swapped but your brain hasn't, there is
this weird connection between x-amino acid in your brain that
communicates with your soul therefore you don't have free will" or
"Midi-chlorian in blood gives you weird biological stuff therefore
you can tap into force"...
The whole genre of Sci-Fy is based on taking one rule, changing it
and exploring what happens, which is cool as long as you are
consistent. But once you start diverging from your rule, or try to
use physics or things to explain stuff that contradicts with your
universe things get ridiculous.
Leave the transformation be mystical if necessary. Explore the
transformation of character. You do not need to go into
bio-chemistry and neuro-psychology of the character. Explain the
dilemmas it feels, the urges it gets. That is what makes a story
pleasant, complex and enjoyable, not the plausibility of it really
happening.
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From: Holly Dunn
, 106 months, post #51 |
Star Wars isn't realistic, yet Luke Skywalker takes one of the most
textbook regular guy to hero transformations of all time.
TG magic/Sci-fi stories aren't plausible, yest scientific and
medical advancements of the past 20 years give the story potentials
new heights. You don't need to reguritate medical fact to tell the
story, but a little research can help your skill as an artist.
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From: guest (JD)
, 106 months, post #52 |
Of course it is not. Neither are bodyswaps.
Star wars was beautiful until they destroyed it by trying to
explain stuff using midi-chlorians. Game of Thrones universe, there
is a mystical, magical power but it is unknown, hinted at, effects
are seen yet it is still very ambiguous, which makes it beautiful.
The second GRR Martin says (and hopefully he doesn't) "Children of
the forest are aliens and magic is high tech" the story will be
destroyed.
What I am trying to say is that, not explaining things very clearly
and leaving them ambiguous almost makes it more believable.
Of course any kind of research will help anyone and everyone.
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From: Weirdoid
, 106 months, post #53 |
This depressing and miserable little story came to my mind the
other day thinking about this thread. It reflects my feelings on
the brain controlling the mind in swaps.
Jennifer's Victory
It's been a couple weeks since that pervert Mark stole her body.
Worst of all he ruined her life, her job, and her relationship just
by doing all the things she was never brave enough to do. His
freshly swapped perspective benefitted him and he went with it as
the old memories flowed into him over time.
For Jennifer it was not as easy. She could deal with a big, ugly,
hairy body as long as people embraced her for who she was on the
inside. She figured that post swap she could try doing girly things
given how memories are brain connections enforced by use and she
had her old memories. But it did not go that way. She was mocked
and ridiculed for crossdressing in public. Transgender support
groups did not seem to understand anyone not caring about the body
as much as she did the mind. After all if a body can swap it can
swap back. Even the doctors said that having her identity die as
alien thoughts and feelings flowed into her was inevitable.
Sure enough it was. She used the male pronoun to describe herself a
couple times the other day, felt attraction to women starting to
grow inside of her. If she could not be herself then only one
option for victory remained.
She didn't know why Mark had that old gun, but it would be her
escape. Her one way to be herself post swap as her mind is getting
over written.
A shot rang out, her body slumped to the floor as blood pooled
around it, but in her dying moments a smile crossed her face. She
won! She died as a Jennifer not as a Mark and her soul was free.
She lingered on around her funeral before slowly fading to the
great beyond. Heard people saying her crossdressed corpse was from
being a pervert not her real self. Mark in her body was especially
cruel in his comments. But as her soul faded out to the great
beyond it smiled knowing that she managed to keep her sense of
self, she won.
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From: cj
, 106 months, post #54 |
Weirdoid - story by you? If not, drop a credit to the author,
please.
And thanks for sharing that unique take on the subject.
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From: Weirdoid
, 106 months, post #55 |
It IS by me CJ
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From: cj
, 106 months, post #56 |
Then... Bravo! I always love light tales... but the dark ones seem
to ring true more often. This was both. Thank you for sharing it
with us.
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From: Weirdoid
, 106 months, post #57 |
I prefer light tales but find dark ones much much easier to write
as they fit my mood.
This tale matches my feelings on the brain controlling the mind
post swap. Basicly forced death, loss of self, and the pain of
being forced into the role of someone you are not coupled with your
brain turning alien.
I'd much rather people be themselves post swap.
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From: Holly Dunn
, 106 months, post #58 |
Identity death where someone's personality is immediately
overwritten to the point they lose all self control is a pet peeve
of mine. Also, the total absence of any brain influence on the
character is equally annoying, too. When stories go in either of
those directions, I stop reading.
Weirdoid, may I ask how would a character experience personal
growth in your type of story, or are you interested more in the
Harlequin Romance format of your fetish? (and that is okay if you
are. I am just trying to understand.)
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From: Weirdoid
, 106 months, post #59 |
I equate all loss of self with identity death which I dislike,
except for when that is the only transformation and the mind
clashes with the body (that can be fun).
It's more about struggling to be oneself and free to be feminine as
a man. Life does not allow men access to their feminine side,
giving a man a girly mind (including making a girl into a man) can
do that. Freedom implies they are not hurt for it (I dislike forced
femme) and I prefer magic/tech to do so. It's more the freedom than
the growth,
Romance aspect? tough to say. I need both an emotional need and a
sexual one hit usually. A freedom to be girly and embracing ones
feminine side while exploring the awkwardness of a man acting like
woman,.
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From: guest (Jayzie)
, 106 months, post #60 |
I have a huge problem with identity death too. I like for the story
to leave the person who they are, but make altercations to their
personality and such that they are still "swapped." When it leads
to identity death and them assuming the other person's everything,
it just becomes a normal story with some sex scenes and what have
you.
Also, I do believe in the "soul" personally, even though I'm not
religious. I have no scientific pages or anything to back me up but
personally I believe that the soul is the unseen, unfelt
consciousness that most likely doesn't exist in the third
dimension, and that our brains are the physical processing units
that interpret them into the third dimension, resulting in our
minds.
I think if there was a soul swap that the neural pathways in the
brain would be semi (but not totally) rewritten to match the new
soul.
Just one theory though. Maybe the only thing that would change is
the memories, due to the fact that men and women have entire
sections of their brains that differ, and wouldn't easily change.
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