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Keeping Sexual Orientation after Body Swap
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From: guest , 106 months, post #21

What about soul swaps? How would the brain work on those? You would have your original soul but have someone else's brain.

From: cj , 106 months, post #22

Well, I guess until a soul swap actually happens, it would be up to the author to decide if the orientation is in the soul or the body.

Personally, I'm of the mind that the love and feeling part (the heart and soul, if you don't mind the pun) of a being would remain with the soul... but the needs and wants of the body; the carnal desires, pleasures, and physical needs (like food and air and water) would stay with the body.

Perhaps there would be an initial residual orientation / desire that remains with the soul, but that the influence of the body will become stronger and stronger until it displaces those residual lingerings to merely fading memories.

From: guest (JD) , 106 months, post #23

There is no scientific evidence of the existence of soul. There is no definition of it, and there is no need of a soul to explain human behavior or anatomy, cogito it probably doesn't exist.

However since most of the ideas debated here are fantasies you are free to imagine, highly encouraged to do so, a concept of a soul and define your own set of definitions and rules.

From: guest , 106 months, post #24

How do you know souls don't exist? Do you know everything? If so, I want some winning powerball numbers now. Go!

From: guest , 106 months, post #25

>How do you know souls don't exist?

Simple: You have to define what a soul is before you can say it exists or not.

If you define having a soul as the ability to pass as a human being all testable measures, then an organic android who can perform to those standards would have a soul but a dog would not, etc...

From: Mr. Ram , 106 months, post #26

If anything has a soul it's dogs.

People? Some do, some don't.

From: cj , 106 months, post #27

I agree with Mr Ram.

From: guest (JD) , 106 months, post #28

If you look at my comment more carefully you will see that I never said soul doesn't exist. I said there is not a definition of a soul, as guest #25 suggested. You have to define it. One problem with Guest #25's definition is, it relies on the definition of "human". But what is human? Do we consider people with brain damage human? Or autistics? Or do they not have souls because they would fail in such tests?

The soul that most people think of, "the spirit that somehow communicates with the brain" is not a good enough one. It is not falsefaible, i.e. you cannot perform any experiments that tests for this. But science doesn't need a "mystical", "unmeasurable" entity to explain human cognition. So probably it doesn't exist, just like the dragons in my closet that nobody can see, feel, hear or touch.

However it is a sexy topic. Just like gods punishing people and turning them into other stuff, swapping "souls" - or mind - without any physical implication is sexy. It is ok to believe in something that doesn't exist, it is a fantasy, relax and enjoy it.

From: guest , 106 months, post #29

A sexy topic? How can a topic be sexy?

From: cj , 106 months, post #30

"A sexy topic? How can a topic be sexy?"

topic = conversation or subject
sexy = exciting, appealing, usually in a sexual manner.

Sexy topic = A conversation or subject that excites, sexually excites, or is appealing.

Sounds possible to me. Though I'm sure the validity of "sexy" for or against any topic would depend on individual tastes/opinions.

From: guest (I wuv Al Sharpton) , 106 months, post #31

AT Jd Yes there is evidence of a soul

AT Mr. Ram, I hate dogs and no they don't have souls.

Duncan MacDougall, a scientist weighed human bodies directly before and after death, and he ALSO did the same for dogs. He found a slight decrease in weight in humans and no decrease in dogs showing that the soul has mass and weight and that only humans have souls. Dogs do not.

Here are some other proofs of a soul

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/biocentrism/201112/does-the-soul-exist-evidence-says-yes

http://www.oddee.com/item_98822.aspx

http://www.inquisitr.com/1812664/human-soul-found-quantum-theory-consciousness-science-religion-true/

The soul is theorized to exist in the microtubules.

From: Weirdoid , 106 months, post #32

The interesting thing is their are enough different ideas on the soul to make it flexible.

Traditional western culture puts it more or less like the mind but with certain emotional and good/bad traits imprinted on it and makes it a human thing.

Ancient Egypt had an idea of people having multiple souls with different functions.

Some shamanic cultures hold everything has a soul, even inanimate objects.

From: Mr. Ram , 106 months, post #33

Anyone who hates dogs has no soul.

From: guest (JD) , 106 months, post #34

I wuv Al Sharpton:

This is going to be my last response. You (and anyone else who is interested in this debate) may do your own research independently later if you wish.

I read all of your sources and I am sorry to say that they are all crap.

First of all wikipedia (you may follow the citations 1-4-5 for further reading) explains that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor) the experiments are done on 6 people with highly inaccurate equipment and the guy who did the experiments were selectively biasing the results, (which is one of the greatest sins of science - trying to fit reality to your hypothesis)

The first article you cited is an op-ed by an MD and not a physicist. I can tell you that his understanding of quantum mechanics and physics is very limited - which is fine since he is not a physicist. It is not ok that he is going around spreading false information though:

- If you read his article carefully, you will see that he gives sh*t to scientists for thinking that humans are biological machines and proposes a new idea called bio-centrism. However he doesn't explain what it is.. He doesn't explain how his bio-centrism view improves on our current knowledge of biology (other than adding a mystical entity called soul into the equation without proposing any answers). He just keeps repeating that there is a mystical understanding of self... That scientists correlate behavior with brain... And suddenly he jumps into quantum mechanics and therefore soul exists?

Just for your education: The double slit experiment is unfortunately misunderstood in general culture. It is correct that if the system is observed it behaves like a bullet and if it is not it behaves like a wave. People falsely conclude that, there is something special about the observer. What really happens is that, there is a probability wave associated with particles, when it goes through both slits, the probability waves of particle going through each slit interfere giving you the wave pattern. However if there is any device in the system that measures which wave the particle went through, you will collapse the wave function, so the probability of going through one slit is either %100 or 0% thus the particle behaves like wave whose source is a single slit, i.e. just like a bullet. (You can put a detector that responds 70% of the time correctly and change the phase of the pattern). The experiment has nothing to do with the observer, it is about the device you use to measure the system, disturbing the system, and quantum mechanics gives you lower limit of how independently you can take measurements. There is nothing mystical about it, it is just linear algebra...

I don't understand the point of the second article or its connection to soul. But if you read carefully the case #2, it is one mans word against systematic study of nature. When you experience near death situation, the oxygen flow to your brain goes down, your neurons starve, fire randomly, which can create images like white flashes or tunnels or make you hear voices. Just like a person who had hallucogenic mushrooms will swear his experience was real (even though his rational part will be like "no bro"), this guy also seems to believe what he experienced is real. But it is not a proof of anything. And rightfully the took his license away for spreading non-scientific 'information'...

And the final article is also full of logic flaws. A quantum computer doesn't have a consciousness. Any machine can fulfill the same task. Anything that has some sort of computational skill is called a Turing machine and they can all solve the same problems. However some machines are better at solving some questions than others. A quantum computer is faster at solving probabilistic questions using the probabilistic nature of quantum bits - or qubits, but you and your phone can solve the same questions too, it just would take you longer.

This guy argues that microtibules construct a quantum computer? But where is his evidence? How are these microtibules entangled (yeah you need entanglement for multi qubit processing). All the molecules are quantum like, cause they are small (and are at that limit I was talking about earlier). But saying they form a quantum computer is like saying any person with long hair is my mom. He does not have any evidence these microtibules perform any computation. And just for the sake of argument, if we assume they did, it is still a physical system, you do not need a mystical power, i.e. soul, to explain quantum processes.

I hope this was helpful. If you are curious, you can watch science lectures from MIT, or other open source university resources. And next time if you are going to present evidence I highly recommend you to cite peer reviewed, prestigious scientific journal published research.

From: Holly Dunn , 106 months, post #35

But this topic is sexual orientation after transformation, not whether souls exist. There is more hard evidence that the brain determines sexual orientation being published every day. Therefore, if you physically transformed, you would tend to have the orientation of the other sex, minus the normal chance for homosexuality, gender dysphoria or any other brain variations.

If you do write a "soul swap" like so many movies and TV shows show a soul leaving one body and entering another, you would tend to take on the brain traits like sexuality of your newly acquired body. Just like you wouldn't take asthma or a heart condition to the other person's body, you wouldn't take the center of the brain that controls your sexual desires with you either.

You can write whatever you want. In stories, the audience will suspend disbelief, but you also need certain elements to make what are considered psychologically satisfying stories. The elements typically include a character development arc starting with the hero being jilted out of his world, learning to cope, fighting obstacles, building to a climactic battle of some sort, and then a resolution where the character has grown (the true transformation.) That is the basic formula for compelling storytelling since the dawn of time.

Indulgent fantasy, trash romance and porn typically don't follow that formula.

There is nothing wrong with writing whatever you want, but that'st the difference. And reading a few articles on brains and human sexuality can really add some depth to your transformation stories for the writers aiming at producing compelling fiction.

From: Weirdoid , 106 months, post #36

If the brain overwrites mind/soul etc. then it would never be a swap as the sense of self, identity, memories, etc. lie in the brain. In other words the swap would do nothing.

From: Holly Dunn , 106 months, post #37

The brain essentially a machine, and men's and women's machine's differ. It's the hardware and memories are software. The fact that the communication and emotional center of a woman's brain is larger helps women understand and raise children is a biological fact that would go with the new body as much as a heart condition. These brain centers aren't just dedicated to raising children; they influence daily behavior down to how many muscles in the face they use to make expressions, and using subtle vocal tones to communicate emotion (where men just tend to talk louder to make a point.) Men's brains have larger areas dedicated to logic and spacial perception.

As young as first grade you can see boys and girls innately playing differently because of their brains. Boys tend more to spread out on the playground and girls tend to commune in groups and play cooperative games.

You put the memories on top of a new brain and it is simply going to work differently, right down to the sexual orientation.

From: guest (JD) , 106 months, post #38

The problem in this debate is the physicality of the soul. Since there is not a clear definition of it, you can do anything! And that is the beauty of story writing, imagination!

There is a whole spectrum of things that can happen based on your definition and assumption of the story.

If you define soul to be your identity, clearly after a soul swap, you will still be you, unaffected from the swap. If your assumption is that everything is controlled by the brain (i.e. soul doesn't exist) then a soul swap will result in no change just like weirdoid stated out. And then you can have anything in between based on your assumptions.

My only advice is stay consistent throughout the story. Or you don't have to explain anything either... It is your imagination, let it run wild.

From: Holly Dunn , 106 months, post #39

I'm not even talking about a soul. The existence of a soul would be irrelevant to what I am pointing out just as much as if the person transformed into a body with asthma or a heart condition. The soul would be irrelevant.

Yes, people are free to write anything they want. You can write that people sailed off into the sunset and fell off the edge of the Earth, but the problem with that is that in most contexts it will make you story look ridiculous.

In the past 15 years, great strides have been made regarding understanding how brain physiology influences behavior. Just as you wouldn't plan a sailing trip to avoid getting too close to the edge of the Earth, I am simply suggesting that writers interested in character development might want to read up a bit on the hundreds of mainstream articles on how your brain influences you act.

I'm not making any soul vs. body argument. It's about understanding basic human behavior in an area that affects topics that the people who visit this board write about.

From: guest , 106 months, post #40

Mr. Rams:
"Anyone who hates dogs has no soul."

Funny I say the same thing about people who hate cats, lul. Anyway I hate dogs because they have no sense of personal space, they're very needy, very loud, often uncleanly, they like to lick, they like to bark, and they'r hyper active. They honestly give me a head ache. I just find them gross and annoying, but it's a matter of personal preference, I prefer animals that like to be petted every once in a while but can be independent and not follow you everywhere to kingdom come.

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