Metamorphose

Metamorphose.org
A Catalog of Transformations, Plus Reviews and Alerts

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GUIDELINES - Transitioning and Inclusion here

From: cj , 115 months, post #1

Okay.

I remember having this discussion previously, but cannot seem to locate that thread.

Here's the question I present for discussion:

Are up-to current day real-world gender changes, and stories of those who are transitioning something that we should be including in this database or not?

From: cj , 115 months, post #2

Although, I sympathize with and have immeasurable respect for those who have been saddled with such a monumental obstacle in life, yet continue to persevere and change what they can to be who they truly are... I feel that these stories are not what this site and its database were created to catalog.

Now that is just my opinion. I'd love to hear yours.

From: guest (Jay) , 115 months, post #3

Absolutely not. The other day was one guy asking for videos of petrifications and that was the limit.

I, and the majority of people, use this site as a catalog of FANTASTIC/ FICTIONAL transformations which can�t happen in real life.

If someone is searching for true tg, they can search on other site. I don't think this page is oriented to "true" tg. With all respect..

From: guest , 115 months, post #4

I'm trans myself, and I don't believe that transitioning belongs here. I've seen the argument made that transitioning does belong on Metamorphose, and I understand it; transition does involve changes to the shape of a person's body. Like Jay, though, I consider this to be a catalog of transformations that aren't possible in real life, at least with current technology.

I dislike slippery slope arguments, but one seems appropriate here. If we include the bodily changes that occur during a transsexual transition, which are ultimately nothing more than reconstructive surgery and natural changes to the body that are induced by artificial hormones, then why don't we include other forms of reconstructive surgery and other natural changes to the body? Why not include plastic surgery? Why not include bariatric surgery? Why not include the changes that occur during puberty? Why not anabolic steroids? Why not pregnancy? Why not disfiguring accidents and artificial limbs? Why not exercise and weight loss?

From: guest (guessed) , 115 months, post #5

Per cj "I feel that these stories are not what this site and its database were created to catalog"

Its a category

Real Life

Explanation of the category 'Real Life'

A non-fictional transformation. A transformation that has happened in real-life.

Actual SRS (Sexual Reassignment Surgery) procedures are a transformation of this type.

Per # 4 "If we include the bodily changes that occur during a transsexual transition, which are ultimately nothing more than reconstructive surgery and natural changes to the body that are induced by artificial hormones�""

There are lots of surgical and hormonal transformations already in the database. Whether gender reassignment by currently available medical interventions belongs in belong in the database would seem to depend on the context.

This site grew out of the Gender Change Fiction List , so it could probably be argued that straight reporting news accounts and autobiographies should be excluded.

For instance, Janet Mock's Autobiography probably doesn't belong here.

But would you exclude Myra Breckenridge, The Skin I live In, or The Passion of New Eve?

How about the episodes of Nip/Tuck, Pickett Fences, Becker, Night Court, LA Law� (its a real long list). which feature a "shock and horror" transsexual reveal?

I think there is probably an argument to be made that "true-to-life" stories about gender reassignment are probably no longer automatically appropriate for the database. I Want What I Want was, at the time of publication very much in-line with the teem of the GCGL. Now, its an interesting artifact from another century.

Transparent or the unspeakably awful Transamerica tell the same kind of story, but they will not resonate with folks like Jay -- for whom this website has always existed exactly as it appears now.

From: cj , 115 months, post #6

Good catch guest (guessed) (Nice homonym, BTW)... I forgot about that category (which I added to the category list),

The category has only one entry... and its history also debates whether it should be included here or not.

Still, I stand behind my statement here (as well as creating the "Real Life" category for that entry). Which is one of the reasons that I created this thread. Where do we draw the line for inclusion / exclusion in this site's database?

From: guest (guessed) , 115 months, post #7

cj "Where do we draw the line for inclusion / exclusion in this site's database?"

Fair enough. I really think it will need to be decided case-by-case.

The GCFL was focussed on fiction. As I recall, some versions of the list were circulated under the label "TG Science Fiction and Fantasy Fiction List" and there were arguments about whether entries were sufficiently fantastic to be included.

Maybe a test for inclusion for GRS-related content could be

Is the physical transformation central to the plot?
Is the physical transformation shown (either the process, or as a before-and-after comparison)

The first would preserve the "Oh my god she used to be a man!" entries where the transformation occurs before the action or otherwise away from view, but would exclude most coming out as trans stories (like Transparent) where the trans character's physical transformation is (mostly) plot device to motivate the drama around hir.

The second would allow for the kind of excerpting and selective viewing that is used to justify the inclusion of masking/disguise/bodysuit entries under the "appears to be a transformation" provision.

I am thinking of the arguments about including Shezow, when Paul seemed to rule that isolated and out-of-context scenes depicting what looked like a transformation were sufficient to warrant inclusion of a show that was explicitly about a cross dresser.

From: guest (Alan Barrie) , 115 months, post #8

I certainly agree that a fiction or nonfiction description of the post-op transsexual experience is not generally what we look for on metamorphose.

However, I can imagine at least one type of exception.

Imagine a well-crafted essay by a post-op transsexual dedicated to helping her reader understand the experience, the feelings, of the first time having an experience typically had only by women.

(Take, for example, a minor one from my novel of a magical metamorphose, A WOMAN'S PASSION. That was the simple, but new, experience of holding a newborn baby against her breasts in a rocking chair.)

If a post-op transsexual was to post a well-crafted essay that let the metamorphose reader feel how such an experience was profoundly different than any he had ever experienced as a man, isn't that exactly the kind of metamorphosed, POV, perception that we all crave to read.

In my opinion, just because it is "real" instead of "imagined" doesn�t make it less so.

From: DB Cooper , 115 months, post #9

I've posted a lot of FICTIONAL accounts of transgender transformation on here. I see nothing wrong with fictional accounts.

From: guest (guessed) , 115 months, post #10

Alan Barrie "If a post-op transsexual was to post a well-crafted essay that let the metamorphose reader feel how such an experience was profoundly different than any he had ever experienced as a man, isn't that exactly the kind of metamorphosed, POV, perception that we all crave to read."

cj's question in the top post was about database entries. So the "well-crafted essay" about the experience of being a woman would be a work published someplace else and submitted d to the DB here -- and it would be rejected under the submission guidelines because it is not a depiction of a transformation.

From: cj , 115 months, post #11

"I've posted a lot of FICTIONAL accounts of transgender transformation on here."

Yes, but just how TG'd were your characters... were they simply characters who went through GRS/SRS (as in real life), or was the change more... "complete" (as in most of the TG fiction many of us enjoy)?

Now you've got my mind cranking. Maybe the real-life transformations should be here.

"... it is not a depiction of a transformation."

Unless the essay was part of a story that did include... or inform us about the transition... the transformation from male to female (et al). Then we would need to decide if the story should be included in the database.

Perhaps it would be something that needed to be examined on a case by case basis.

From: guest (Alan Barrie) , 115 months, post #12

IMO, we can trust cj to interpret "depiction of a transformation" on a case by case basis.

Aren't there already many examples in the database that offer mostly the post-transformation experience with just a refernce to the transformation experience itself? I think so.

And for me, at least, it is that post-transformation POV experience much more than the "magic" itself that is most interesting.

From: Carlsbad , 115 months, post #13

It might also depend on the nature of the transformation being depicted, and how close it comes to reality. For instance, I recall an episode of the really awful sitcom "Testees" in which the 2 protagonists underwent a temporary, reversible sex-change procedure, spent about a week as women, and then turned back. This is obviously not possible in reality, but the nature of the transformation is much closer to reality than, say, a magic insta-girl spell. At the same time, what about an entry in which there is a slow (i.e. over several months/years) TF from a woman into a man, due to a made-up disease or magical curse? Would that merit inclusion?

Honestly, transgender people are becoming much more visible now than they were when this site first started, and the timeline from start to finish for someone who does elect to transition is shorter now than it ever has been (as little as one year between starting hormones and living as a woman, to SRS, according to current WPATH guidelines). It is entirely conceivable that, within our lifetimes, reversible, "fast" sex alterations will become possible and feasible for a larger number of people. If that happens, will TG fiction no longer merit inclusion here?

I think that the criterion should be that, to merit inclusion, the change must be a work of fiction, not be based on a real person's experiences or biography, and reflect some aspect other than a "traditional" gender transition. For instance, a story in which a man questions his gender, realizes she is a woman, and transitions to such would not really merit inclusion here; a story in which a wealthy woman pays for her male lover to be surgically converted into her lesbian slave would potentially have a place; and an insurance advertisement where a guy wakes up in Vegas with a hangover and discovers he got breast implants the previous night would be a borderline case. If it becomes a really contentious issue, it might merit spinning off a separate site or database just for "realistic gender transitions" in media, which might be of interest to some people here.

From: guest (guessed) , 115 months, post #14

per Alan Barrie "we can trust cj to interpret "depiction of a transformation" on a case by case basis."

No one is saying differently.

"And for me, at least, it is that post-transformation POV experience much more than the "magic" itself that is most interesting."

Okay. This stie, though, is A Catalog of Transformations, Plus Reviews and Alerts , The guidelines (as currently written) revolve around the transformation part of the story.

I do remember arguments, possibly from as long ago as the ListServ and USENET days, about whether mind transference (or "body swaps" as they are usually styled here) counted as transformations.

"Aren't there already many examples in the database that offer mostly the post-transformation experience with just a refernce to the transformation experience itself? I think so."

Yes. You are correct. It would be interesting to know how many of those were grandfathered in from the GCFL. I don't know when exactly the site turned into a wiki, or the date at which submission guidelines were first posted.

The Wayback Machine has captures going back to May 2000 , but I think the site was here before that. I remember a very simple site with just an index across the top of the page and a few breadcrumbs for navigation

The GCFL circulated on different forums, getting copied and modified, and re-modified. I seem to recall that Paul published updates to USENET. But I saw it on mailing lists aimed at both transsexuals and TG fiction fans. It included lots of stuff that wouldn't make the cut per the guidelines cj is asking us to discuss,

I don't have time, or the interest really, to make a thorough search but the most recent "only seen after transition" TS I can find in the database is Chuck Palahniuk's, "Invisible Monsters" which, according to the Wayback Machine, was added after the guidelines were published. Everything else with "transsexual" or "transexual" in the description (of which there is very little) seems to predate the guidelines.

From: cj , 115 months, post #15

Thanks (guessed)! I am dumb-founded that I don't recall ever running across any entries where the gender transformation was based on "modern" medical technology.

Based on this revelation, that some "real life" fictional stories are already included... now we just need to help nail-down inclusion criteria... well, guidelines.

I do like the idea for fiction:

"Maybe a test for inclusion for GRS-related content could be

Is the physical transformation central to the plot?
Is the physical transformation shown (either the process, or as a before-and-after comparison)"

I would add, "is there an exploration of the mental / emotional / sociological changes or differences between the character's two genders?"

I might also add that any remarkable non-fiction stories / instances MIGHT be eligible for inclusion if they meet the above criteria.

Then we also have to decide on a what category name we should use to help keep the database organized.

Please let me know what you think.

From: cj , 115 months, post #16

DB Cooper, I see that. Thanks for the comments - they were helpful in finding some of the entries.

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