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From: guest (contortionist)
, 121 months, post #41 |
The media and society
??
I am guessing that this is an answer to "Who is giving out medals
for {being gay}?
Seriously, what is "bending over backwards" that you think straight
folks are being asked to do for the sake of LGBTQ folks? Give an
example.
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From: guest
, 121 months, post #42 |
As a transwoman, all I ask is that people treat me with the same
compassion and respect they would treat anyone else. The same is
true for most LGBT individuals. That really doesn't seem like such
an outrageous request to make.
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From: guest
, 121 months, post #43 |
You should be treated just like everyone else but when you don't
get your way, please do not use your minority status as a crutch,
excuse, or card. That's all I ask.
I just want to know when did it become a crime to unintentionally
or intentionally offend someone? I mean isn't being offended just a
price humans pay because of their imperfection? Not saying it's
right. At the same time, you can't honestly expect to go your
entire life on Earth without being offended and/or made fun of or
heard something that you didn't like. The key is to always be the
bigger person. The more you know.
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From: guest
, 121 months, post #44 |
But everyone is perfect, bullying is never excusable, its as bad
trying to excuse any sin. Defending sin is as bad as committing
them. I'm not saying it won't happen but nobody should justify them
and everyone should complain when they see bullying, it should be a
crime.
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From: guest (contortionist)
, 121 months, post #45 |
You should be treated just like everyone else but when you don't
get your way, please do not use your minority status as a crutch,
excuse, or card. That's all I ask.
Give an example of an LGBTQ person who used his or her LGBTG status
as a "crutch, excuse, or card" please.
I just want to know when did it become a crime to unintentionally
or intentionally offend someone?
Ask that question of the people who are offended by the idea of
same-sex marriage, non-normative gender identities
Aks that question of the nameless poster who keeps on about how gay
people shouldn't be called "brave" or be allowed to hold pride
parades that don't also celebrate the wonderfulness of
staight-folks.
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From: guest (contortionist)
, 121 months, post #46 | |
Message deleted by cj. duplicate post |
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From: guest (Also Interested)
, 121 months, post #47 |
I understand your point, guest, about not making a big deal about
people being gay. I really do.
I think you are focused on the aspect of the word "hero" but let's
just break it down for a minute. Many people grow up in an
environment that says that they are wrong, abnormal, and evil.
Imagine growing up at home and your parents say that "those" gay
people are evil and unnatural. When you get dragged to church and
they are saying that those other gay people are "choosing" a
lifestyle that will send them to hell. When your friends are saying
that they were raised that homosexuality is wrong. All of this
while you yourself think that you may be gay. Now you feel this
shame, guilt, even disgust with yourself. You try to change, but
you can't, you ask why this is happening to you, with no answers,
and you are instilled with fear of everyone casting you out. Your
family disowning you, your friends no longer being your friend,
your church saying you are going to hell and/or not being welcome
back to church. Or worse, reinforcing all of these fears as they
try to change you to no avail. And then what about people who
aren't your friend or family? Now you have the fear of them
attacking you.
So what? You make it seem like it's nothing. Everyone has fears and
doubts. But living in them is no healthy way to live. And like
everyone else has to do with their fears, it takes courage to
overcome them. It takes courage to do something despite of all the
overwhelming fear you have that prevents you from doing so. And
true courage is real bravery.
THAT is what coming out is. Coming out is not saying "hey I'm gay,
let's party, shower me with gifts," it's an act of bravery and THAT
is why we congratulate those courageous enough to be open and
honest with themselves and others. And now they face outward and
direct discrimination; instead of people talking about others, they
are talking about them. Possibly losing everything, their family,
friends, faith, their support system in general and then deal with
risking their job, home, EVERYTHING. This does happen in real life,
no not for everyone, but for far too many. And many fear that it
will happen to them.
We should be thankful that it doesn't happen as often, and that
when people do come out people say "whatever." But when an actor or
someone famous comes out, they are also coming out to show evidence
that it is okay to be gay and to act as a symbol of hope for those
still living in fear. Hopefully, then, they don't give up and
commit suicide, a risk that is higher for LGBT youth. So now these
people that are coming out, are being pretty brave, courageous, and
yes, a hero to those kids that don't have a role model to look up
to. So, yes, they are saving lives in a way.
And that is something to celebrate.
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From: guest (contortionist)
, 121 months, post #48 |
Guest: (Also Interested), I don't think you do get it. This is an
internet argument.
Our always unsigned guest is not trying to discuss the merits of
his argument.
He is complaining about things that don't happen, about people who
only exist as caricatures drawn by reactionary conservative
pundits. When challenged, he retreats into increasingly vague and
bland statements about "minorities" and "special treatment"l.
His complaint seems to be that no one is lining up to give HIM
medals, throw HIM a parade, or call HIM heroic. He doesn't
acknowledge the intolerance and injustice borne by LGBTQ to which
LGBTQ activism is the reaction. He only sees the activism as a
party to which he was not invited; LGBTQ organizations as clubs
he's been told he cannot join,
To him, it appears that being born queer is like winning a kind of
lottery. There are organizations who will defend your choices and
celebrate your life.
He has dismissed every attempt to explain the risks and hardships
endured by queer folks by saying that HE thinks it is wrong to do
bad things to queer folks
No I am not. You shouldn't be harassed or done any harm because of
stuff that makes you who you are. You should be treated like a
person.
without acknowledging that queer folks ARE targeted for harassment
and oppression, or by who, they are harassed and oppressed.
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From: guest (contortionist)
, 121 months, post #49 |
oh, and before the moderators decide that I am attacking our
unsigned individual -- scroll back through his comments. In
particular:
Post# 30 just don't think a gay person should be celebrated or glorified for
admitting to everyone who they are. I have scoliosis but that
doesn't mean I go around telling everyone that I have it and demand
that people take pity on me.
I don't care if people are gay, straight, bisexual, or whatever. I
just get annoyed when people demand that I fight 24/7 for their
sexuality because they are insecure of what others may think about
what they do in the bedroom.
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From: guest
, 121 months, post #50 |
I don't see how I'm attacking gay people. I have clearly stated to
the court that I don't have a problem with them being gay, getting
married, having kids, owning property, having jobs, etc...
The only problem or thing that annoys is when people use their
gayness as a crutch, cop out, or special thing. Being gay does not
make you special or unique. I'm sorry but if you are a man and you
like penises, that does not make you special or unique. You're just
a gay man. Nothing more and nothing less.
Once upon a time, I did think that gayness was a sin and abnormal
but now I honestly do not know. I can't definitely say one way or
another. I don't have an infinite amount of knowledge and power so
I can't tell you.
With that being said, I can't definitely tell you if gay people are
born gay or choose it.
Let's say for a second, that your own sexuality is biological.
Let's say for the argument sake, that I accept defeat on that and
allow you victory. Can you honestly say with a straight face that
having sex with your consent with another consenting adult is a
choice or just going with your biology?
I think a lot of people never mention that. When you have
consensual sex with someone, you are actively choosing to have sex.
No one is putting a gun to your head and say "you are gay or
straight so you must have gay or straight sex". You are doing it
because you want to do so and because it feels good. So please
don't give me this "I was born this way so I have to have gay sex".
Honestly, what does say about you that you are so insecure about
yourself that you have to make excuses when you have sex or engage
in sexual activities? I mean if you are going to be gay, just be
gay but at the same time, don't make excuses. Own your gayness and
embrace it. And please please don't play the victim. Thank you.
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From: cj
, 121 months, post #51 |
"The only problem or thing that annoys is when people use their
gayness as a crutch, cop out, or special thing."
And yet, you've provided us with NO PROOF of such a thing
happening. I've certainly never witnessed that type of thing.
"When you have consensual sex with someone, you are actively
choosing to have sex."
True. But what does this REALLY have to do with the topic of BEING
lesbian, gay, bi, or trans? Some gay men choose to have sex with
women, some lesbians choose to have sex with men... both do so in
an attempt to CONFORM to that which society deems as normal. They
CHOOSE to go against who they ARE so that they can fit in and AVOID
PERSECUTION.
Now if they decide to embrace who they truly are, they could end up
persecuted or dead at the hands of those who don't accept (unlike
yourself) that being LGBT... as being natural / normal... it is
those people who exhibit a great deal of courage and bravery... the
more danger they face, the more that they become a "hero" to not
only others who are LGBT, ect... but to the whole of humanity as
well... for standing up to the danger and awakening the world to
their plight (being LGBT in a world that would have them killed for
being so).
I do see where the word "hero" can be used from time to time... but
even when not on the topic of LGBTQIA, the media overuses the word
on a nearly daily basis. So I certainly empathize with you. But do
not dismiss that it takes great courage and bravery to openly admit
to be lesbian, gay, trans, bi, or whatever even in today's
open-minded first-world civilizations... especially in the American
sporting world.
"... that you have to make excuses when you have sex or engage in
sexual activities?"
Who is making EXCUSES when they have sex? Are you making excuses
when you have sex... do you even have sex with a willing parnter?
This statement makes no sense at all in this discussion... unless
you really still don't understand what BEING gay, etc is.
On the other-hand... are you sure that you're straight... maybe
you're bi... or maybe you're secretly gay and you're just not sure
of it yet. Imagine yourself as heterosexual in a world where
heterosexuality is considered wrong and that your family will
disown you and your friends will shun you, and the community at
large may beat you to death. You know in your heart that being
hetero is right for you. What do you do. You try to be gay, to show
the world that you're just as normal as anyone else. Inside you're
dying... you're struggling to understand why the world just doesn't
understand, why the world is so wrong... "or maybe it's just me".
Imagine living like that, conflicted, "damaged", terrified that the
world may suddenly find out your "secret".
If you can imagine that, then you'll start to understand what it's
like... and why such bravery is needed to "come out".
I hope that this helps you to better to understand things from this
new point of view.
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From: guest
, 121 months, post #52 |
I'm honestly not trying to start anything or make anyone whether
they are gay, straight, bisexual, transgender, purple, black,
white, Asian, Latino, Jewish, atheist, Christian, Muslim, etc...
mad or hurt their feelings.
I was just stating my opinion.
I mean at the end of the day, I can truthfully say that when I go
to sleep at night, that I'm not worrying about the fact that gay
men have gay sex. I have my personal crap to deal with, sorry. It's
not personal. I just don't really do causes. Now if you want to be
a part of a cause or movement, you can. I won't stop you. I'm just
saying that it's not for me.
The best thing that humans can do when it comes to dealing with
other humans being gay is to just not make a big deal about it.
People are gay. So what? Who freakin' cares? If you're a man and
you like penis, whatever floats your boat. Just do it and be happy.
Stop making excuses and stop letting what society thinks of you
control your life.
There will always be people on this planet that don't like you or
hurt your feelings. That is just a sad fact of life. I'm not saying
it's right but it happens. You can't go your whole life expecting
to never have your feelings hurt or to never hear something that
offends you. That's not healthy. Got to be the bigger person.
As for my sexuality, men just don't do it for me. Sorry, I don't
get aroused by them. Women especially Asians, Europeans, and
Australians really do it for me and definitely ones that wear
hosiery and heels. Yeah, I have a weird fetish. It's 2014 and
people have kinky preferences.
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From: guest
, 121 months, post #53 |
People don't just hurt gay and trans people's feelings; they hurt
their bodies and their livelihoods. There's an enormous difference
in magnitude here that you don't seem to be able to grasp.
No one is asking you to join the fight for LGBT rights. There are
people suffering all over the world; I care about their suffering,
and I wish I could help them all, but I don't have the time, the
energy, or the resources for that. I help the people I can and wish
the best for the people I can't help. But at the same time, I don't
dismiss their concerns as petty or their grievances as whiny their
causes as pointless.
No one here is upset that you aren't out on the front lines of the
LGBT movement. That's not what bothers us. What bothers us is that
you're essentially telling LGBT to shut up, that their suffering
doesn't matter, and that you're personally annoyed that they're
trying to express their concerns and better their lives. You're
dismissing broken bones, broken bodies, and broken lives as "hurt
feelings". That's callous and that's unfair.
LGBT people aren't demanding that you give them special treatment
or to put your life on hold for them. All they ask is that you
treat them with the respect and consideration with which you, I
hope, treat everyone, and that you don't complain about the fact
that they're trying to end the very real and very serious suffering
they face.
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From: guest
, 121 months, post #54 |
I only get annoyed when people use their minority status or
something that is a part of their individuality as an excuse or cop
out. If a person doesn't do that, I'm not annoyed.
Even with being annoyed, it's not the end of the world.
I'm not gonna cry myself to sleep over this stuff. Do I think it
sucks how gay people are treated in America? Yes. They shouldn't be
treated badly just because they like vagina or penis. They should
just be left alone.
The perfect compromise would be for their haters usually extreme
Bible thumpers(not saying everyone that is religious is a gay
basher) to just accept that people are different. You can still
think that being gay is a sin or whatever but just let gay people
get married, play house, and have jobs and cars and whatever. Gay
people can complete that compromise by not forcing their views of
pro gayness onto their haters. You can both co-exist and not kill
or hurt each other but your egos will both take some hits and you
will have to be a little humble. Yeah, you can be pro-gay or
anti-gay because of whatever reason. Just get along and let each
side do their own thing. Just don't hurt or kill anyone. Be nice.
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From: guest
, 121 months, post #55 |
I can't see why god would be all that bothered, to call it sinful
is a bit ridiculous, its like saying people who like Marmite will
all burn in hell (which they obviously will) and that god hates
marmite and all yeast based products.
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From: guest (Wichita)
, 121 months, post #56 |
guest (contortionist): I only recently discovered this thread, so
if my comment ahas already been posted, please accept my apologies.
In post #41 you stated, "Seriously, what is "bending over
backwards" that you think straight folks are being asked to do for
the sake of LGBTQ folks? Give an example." This may be on the minor
side, but the flak last Christmas over the avoiding of the word
"gay" in the song, "Deck the Halls" sure comes to mind. I read on
Yahoo! that one elementary school teacher was fired over having her
class sing "Don we now our bright apparel". (She claimed she didn't
want the Kindergardeners giggling over the word "gay" if she had
used it.) Likewise, WalMart caught some flak for posting an ad with
the catch-line "Don we now our fun apparel".
I would accept it as a plain statement of fact that the word "gay"
had a totally different connotation when the song was written than
it has today. And I'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence by
suggesting the word was replaced for some other reason. But the
words people use in the language they speak and the songs they sing
is their business. Have you ever heard the Mormon Tabernacle
Choir's rendition of "Sleigh Ride"? In the bridge of the song, they
replace the word "coffee" with "cider"; I have always assumed that
was because devout Mormons do not drink coffee for health reasons.
I have heard renditions of other songs - "The Quest (To Dream the
Impossible Dream)" for example - where the lyrics were reworked to
eliminate the word "hell" for those who are offended by that word.
Obviously, songs that make fun of any group - by sexual orientation
or identity, national origin, skin color, religion or any other
criteria - is to be avoided. But firing an elementary school
teacher for not using the word "gay" in a Christmas song, even
considering the obvious reason why she changed it, strikes me as
being a little bit of "bending over backwards."
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From: cj
, 121 months, post #57 |
"... firing an elementary school teacher for not using the word
"gay" in a Christmas song, even considering the obvious reason why
she changed it, strikes me as being a little bit of "bending over
backwards." "
I disagree. First, if they were fired, was it due to the an outcry
from the gay community? Probably not. I'm guessing if they were
fired that it was due to the poor decision to change the lyrics,
rather than take the opportunity to educate the children and
correct their young misperception. Ask them why they are giggling /
what's so funny, then teach them the proper definition of "gay" as
used in the song (happy, bright, or lively). There's no need for
the children to learn about sexuality in defining the word "gay",
they shouldn't understand that quite yet anyhow.
I do question why younger children would find it funny anyhow -
what were the giggling childrens' parents teaching those kids. And
then those kids teaching the others. A missed educational
opportunity for sure.
With corporate decisions of similar nature - (like Hallmark's
removal of the same word from the same lyrics) - it's traditional
and it STILL means the same thing that it did when it was written;
there's no reason to change the lyrics. Even Hallmark's change
wasn't indicative of "bending over backwards" to the gay community,
if anything, it was more akin to avoiding the subject altogether by
removing all passing resemblances or anything that might trigger
association.
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From: guest
, 121 months, post #58 |
Gay means the same as it always has to most people, but I guess
some young kids don't realise that, I hear the term, 'that's well
gay' all the time, to which I say "it is pretty fancy isn't it, but
you know might as well buy the biggest gayest most bling thing you
can get"
But then its a generation that thinks things are good if they are
sick, everything's backwards goods bad, sicks great, gays not gay,
etc
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From: guest (contortionist)
, 121 months, post #59 |
Guest Wichita #56 This may be on the minor side, but the flak last Christmas over the
avoiding of the word "gay" in the song, "Deck the Halls" sure comes
to mind. I read on Yahoo! that one elementary school teacher was
fired over having her class sing "Don we now our bright apparel".
(She claimed she didn't want the Kindergardeners giggling over the
word "gay" if she had used it.) [/
Didn't happen the way you remember. The teacher was not fired for
changing the words and neither the change in lyrics, nor the
restoration of the original lyric, was at the behest of any LGBTQ
group, nor was either intended to spare the feelings of LGBTQ
folks. It was a teacher trying to maintain discipline in her class.
From Post t#30 I just get annoyed when people demand that I fight 24/7 for their
sexuality because they are insecure of what others may think about
what they do in the bedroom.
Who is demanding this?
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From: guest (contortionist)
, 121 months, post #60 |
crap -- messed up the tags.
Here
is the link to the news story about the Travers City Michigan
music teacher who was not fired.
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