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From: cj
, 122 months, post #1 |
Some time back, I decided to do a little self-assessment of what it
was that drew me to the idea of being a girl or woman. I came up
with some pros and cons, and a some tangential thoughts.
A quick snip of that list made it to another thread here, but
seemed to spark some more conversation that pulled that thread
off-topic. So, I decided to post my thoughts here, to allow for
that discussion to continue in an appropriate manner.
The list is in no, real, particular order... and is based on how
I'd like to imagine myself if I were a woman... in other-words, to
my own tastes. I know it may make me seem chauvinistic, naive,
aloof, and misinformed / misguided - but it's honest (and I
probably am these things to an extent too).
Reasons I would love to be a girl:
(I could probably live with these permanently... if in the right
body)
To have a body that fit girls'/womens' clothes correctly
No male parts getting in the way
To effortlessly/naturally move like a girl/woman moves
Soft skin
To feel what it's like to have lady-parts
To be more flexible
To feel those silky, satiny, soft, lacy, and/or sexy underthings
against my female body
To be able to sit with legs crossed at the knees
To socialize with other women as a woman (is there a difference?)
Dresses and skirts
Tights and hosiery
To be treated like a lady
It's socially acceptable for me to carry a purse
(To experience... at least once, though I might not like them)
To go out on a date as a girl/woman
Pregnancy
Childbirth
Breast-feeding
Vulnerability
Puberty as a girl (I don't think I'd have the patience, though)
Annual gynecological exam
Urinating as a girl/woman
(I think I would prefer these to be
very temporary, just enough to satisfy my curiosity)
To know what it's like to have to deal/live with menstruation
To know what it's like to be around men as an attractive woman
To experience life from a woman's point of view (Workplace,
Social... Gender discrimination, Glass-ceiling, misogyny)
Reasons I think I would hate being a girl:
Being viewed as anything other than just another person (eye-candy,
meat, fuck-toy, stupid girl, second-class, inferior, "I'd do
her"-material)
Prolonged misogyny and gender discrimination
Glass-ceiling
Uncomfortable and/or limiting shoes (and other apparel)
Menopause
Sagging body parts due to age (not looking forward to this as a guy
either)
Periods (after the novelty wears off)
Discomfort and length of pregnancy (after the novelty wears off)
Pain of childbirth
peeing in the woods
vanity / keeping up my appearance
long hair
amount of time needed to deal with make-up, hair, nails, clothes,
shoes, accessories, etc.
amount of money needed for a "basic" wardrobe/ensemble vs. as a guy
amount of money being diverted to appearance, wardrobe, cosmetics,
accessories, etc.
long nails getting in the way / breaking a nail / chipping my
polish
accessories getting in the way
breasts (when being physically active)
needing a purse most of the time (though it being socially
acceptable to do so would be a plus)
Mean girls (maybe that's just the teenagers)
Vulnerability / rape
Perhaps losing some size & strength advantage
Maybe... men
Despite all of those concerns/issues... I'd still be game to live
through (most of) those experiences.
I was surprised by the amount of items / thoughts that focused on
clothing... not so surprised on the focus of the physical
sensations and differences between men and women. And I was really
hesitant on listing such personal thoughts here - but... I am who I
am.
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From: cj
, 122 months, post #2 |
And this was the conclusion of my assessment:
"Wish fulfillment. Better health (physically fit & flexible),
younger, more attractive... After that, women's clothing fitting
correctly (the feel of the fabrics, and the fit of the styles to a
body that they're made for); no "parts in the way", naturally
moving like a girl/woman... Finally, to pass as a girl/woman
(without thinking) in the real world, while experiencing the
differences in the societal matrix between being male and being
female; being able to remember and describe the differences to
others."
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From: guest
, 122 months, post #3 |
Do women really have softer skin? Their skin tends to be less hairy
and usually has more subcutaneous fat underneath, sure.
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From: guest (Guest)
, 122 months, post #4 |
I can really relate to your post, cj. I think I am either jealous
or envious of what the fairer sex has and the clothing seems to
figure strongly for me too. Since your recent posts mentions wish
fulfillment, are there actresses or models that resemble who you
would like to be? And would you still want to be them if they did
not dress a certain way?
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From: cj
, 122 months, post #5 |
"Do women really have softer skin?"
The girls and women I've dated had softer skin than I. Though I'd
attribute that to them taking better care of it. Biologically...
I've got no clue.
"are there actresses or models that resemble who you would like to
be?"
There have been many, many, many of them through the years. And
just as many non-celebrities. Too many to list here - but I'm sure
in the years of discussions and comments and answers here, I've
listed a few.
I would rather be transformed into my ideal girl/woman than swap
with someone. Swapping with someone (for me) would require a
willing partner, and then "inheriting" their problems and past.
Though for a temporary fix, a swap would certainly do.
"And would you still want to be them if they did not dress a
certain way?"
Yes, I might be disappointed... or I might get to dress them/myself
in a way that makes me feel better. Either way, I'd try to make
sure that I don't embarrass them or myself.
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From: Forestier
, 122 months, post #6 |
Some threads with similar subjects:
Opposite Sex - Actual Desire To Be, Or Is It Just Envy?
If you metamorphosed...
Simple pleasures of being female?
Becoming Male Is A Promotion, Female A Demotion
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From: cj
, 122 months, post #7 |
Thanks for those Forestier.
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From: guest (Alan Barrie)
, 122 months, post #8 |
Personally, I'm shocked that this string hasn't gotten more play.
It is one of the most candid, thoughtful, and thought-provoking OPs
I've ever seen on Metamorphose.
Why aren't more metamorphose readers and posters more intrigued?
Don't they ever think DEEPLY about their interest in
transformation.
Frankly, I could write a long paragraph of reaction/fascination
with almost every one of your "love to"s and "hate being"s.
I'll try to start with my favorite of these: the nature of
socializing as a woman with a woman. Hope to do that some time this
week.
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From: guest (lily)
, 122 months, post #9 |
@ Forestier #6
Another Realities of Life as Female
and another If You Became A Woman
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From: cj
, 122 months, post #10 |
"It is one of the most candid, thoughtful, and thought-provoking
OPs I've ever seen on Metamorphose."
Thank you.
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From: Forestier
, 122 months, post #11 |
To guest (Alan Barrie)
�I'll try to start with my favorite of these: the nature of
socializing as a woman with a woman. Hope to do that some time this
week.�
I will come back to this thread more thoroughly, but I must ask:
will you be credible, and interested, in chatting with women?
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From: cj
, 122 months, post #12 |
"will you be credible"
Alan Barrie - "A Woman's Passion" entry here
- If that helps.
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From: guest
, 122 months, post #13 | |
Message deleted by cj. Off topic -- Thanks for that info guest, I've updated the thread you referred to. Go ahead and start a new thread about ESO if you'd like to discus it further. |
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From: guest (Alan Barrie)
, 122 months, post #14 |
As I posted earlier, I really like this string.
Thinking deeply about why our interest in transformation,
especially gender metamorphoses. Do we do that enough on this
board?
Certainly CJ has done it as evidenced by this string. There are
other frequenters of this board who seem to do it regularly: Lily,
Saint, several more (but I'd have to go back read in the archives
some more to remind myself of their screen names).
[An aside to CJ, I find that one of the weaknesses of this board.
There are lots of great, archived board strings that are very
interesting, but there is no easy way to browse them that I can
find. I guess because I can't find the time to get on here as often
as I would like, I find having less than a week's worth of strings
visible at any one time inadequate. If one wants to see where a
past string went, one has to remember a keyword and try searching
on that. I understand that having a fuller index to the archives is
too much to ask for; but a link to a longer archive list would be
great. Those older strings are there, saved, ready to be re-read
and appreciated. Why not make it easier to get to them? Of course,
I realize that the moderators here are subject to the limitations
of the service they are using. Perhaps you can pass up my concerns
to those techies?
Back to the subject at hand: thinking more deeply about our
interest in [gender metamorphose.
I loved CJ's list in the OP. IMO, every topic in his "would love"
and "would hate" lists is worthy of its own string of exploration.
And not just from deep thinkers like Lily, but from all of us.
Here's my favorite from the "would love" list:
To socialize with other women as a woman (is there a difference?)
And here are my opinions:
Boy is there ever! That, both from the plethora of writing on the
subject; from my own experiences as an occasional woman; and by the
first of these informed by the second.
I'll review a couple of those pretty-well-accepted differences; and
then posit, what I think is a pretty interesting new conclusion
that I've not read elsewhere.
While I have several quarrels with pop-psychologist John Gray's
early 1990s classic MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS, I do
believe, from experience, that there is a fundamental difference in
the way women talk to women and men talk to men. (And, of course,
as an aside, understanding that difference REALLY helps a man talk
to a woman.)
Getting back to CJ's list question: is there a difference? Yep, and
I have found it the second most interesting thing about gender
transformation. (Anybody who has read my novel knows what I find
the most interesting thing; but this is the second most interesting
thing.)
Making a bumper sticker summation out of what is substantially a
bumper sticker book on a complex subject is probably unwise, but is
at least sufficient for a discussion board string, so here goes:
Probably it comes from our hunter-gatherer days: women use language
among themselves to support a sense of community, to connect with
one another; men use language among themselves to establish
relative power or authority.
As a woman, you can feel it in every interaction with another
woman. Just as a minor example, in my experience, unlike men, women
always at least smile and very often talk to one another, to
complete strangers that is, at the women's room sinks. If you have
an occasion to present as a woman and go to wash your hands in a
women's room, you should be prepared to have a few whispered
pleasantries, or at least that smile, ready.
With women, it's always "should we?;" rarely "we should." It's
always offering support; never deriding a fail.
In a gospel-true scene in a memoir of a weekend I spent as a woman
(that full memoir can be found in the Metamorphose files
somewhere), I describe how another woman, an almost total stranger,
believing I was a woman anxious to develop a relationship with a
man we were with, offered several "secret" signs of support for
that effort. I can tell you that this "secret" communication from
one woman to another was the most womanly thing that has ever
happened to me.
There's another example, from Deborah Tannen's book YOU JUST DON'T
UNDERSTAND (4 years on the bestseller list; 8 months as number 1).
Actually, I found one of the most interesting thing about this
particular "is it different" is how universally different it is.
It's totally different among women than among men. But it is
totally the same among all women, everywhere, from China to France,
from primitive societies in Borneo to the sophisticates of Park
Avenue. This example: when a woman is stressed, she will find a way
to share the cause of her stress with another woman; and here's the
thing: all she wants is a tsk, tsk! She wants commiseration,
nothing else. Every woman, everywhere. Of course, a man's reaction
when presented with the problem is to suggest a solution. (Again,
as an aside to you men who have to communicate with a woman: don't
do that! That's not what she wants. She's not stupid. She's
probably already thought of your solution anyway. She doesn't want
you to alpha dog her by showing her the solution. Practice your
supportive smile and your tsk, tsk. Just commiserate.)
In short then, the answer is yes, socializing with other women as a
woman is a definite "would love" category, one of the most
interesting. I would go so far as to say: IMO, if you are not
interested in experiencing that, than you are not really interested
in experiencing gender metamorphosis fully.
Finally, my original observation. To pre-clarify, I'm not talking
about bromance here (whatever that really means.) I am talking
about real, longterm male friendships. After years and years of
such a friendship, two, even heterosexual, men can and often do
eventually get to the kind of open, emotionally supportive,
non-competitive ways of talking to one another that women find so
natural.
Metamorphosis: socializing as a woman with other women. It's very
cool. It's very worth thinking about and talking about!
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From: guest (lily)
, 122 months, post #15 |
Alan - bumper stickers indeed.
Here
is a very good critique of the flaws and failings of "You Just
Don't Understand: Men and Women in Conversation". The biggest flaw,
of course, being that the author drew different inferences from the
same observations in the book than she did in her scholarly
publications, a fundamentally dishonest act.
This
(PDF) is a metastudy of research into the sensitivity of 122
measurable characteristics (behaviors or personality traits) to
assigned gender.
The language is dense, and the math very steep, but the conclusion
is that -- for the population of 13,000 individuals examined in the
various studies -- gender is not a strong indicator for ANY of the
measured personality characteristics.
That is to say, while there is persistent difference in the average
score for when and the average score for men on many scales of
aptitude/preference/inclination, that difference is always much
smaller than the range over which the two populations will
overlap.
You are as likely to encounter a man with a high score for some
"feminine" trait as you are to find a woman with a low score for
that same trait.
Gendered behavior is strongly affected by education and economic
status. For instance, you will find a larger difference between the
preferences and aptitudes of highly educated women and uneducated
women, than you will find between men and women of the same
educational achievement along any scale you care to measure.
There are cultural expectations about the behavior of men and
women. These are not innate. Little boys and little girls are
encouraged by their parents and by their peers to behave in
gender-normative ways. Our cultural expectations though, do more to
influence our perception of gendered behavior that they do to
influence that behavior.
When a book like "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus" hits the
shelves, confirming the culturally acceptable norms that women are
more communicative, men are more stoic, we nod and say "yes, that
makes sense". However when we meet a woman who is taciturn, or a
man who is chatty, we either do not notice, or do not try to place
those individuals on a "masculine/feminine" continuum.
There are certainly gendered styles
of speech, dress, etc. Cues that we use to tell whether the person
before us is "masculine" or "feminine", but these are so easily
suppressed or mimicked that they verge on a deliberate performance
of gender. These cues vary with culture, and also strongly
influenced by economic and educational factors.
For instance, in the industrialized west, it is unremarkable when
women greet each other with a kiss, but would be uncomfortable to
see two me buss each other on the cheek. From this we infer that
"women are more comfortable with physical affection than men". In
Arab societies, however, men hold hands and kiss each other right
on the mouth in public, while women are expected to be modest to
the point of immobility.
All of which is to say, if you were a man suddenly transformed into
a woman, it would be a bad idea to try to strike up a conversation
with the woman at the next sink in the ladies'. She has places to
go, and she just wants to wash her hands, straighten her clothes,
and get out the door.
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From: cj
, 122 months, post #16 |
Alan, here's a link to the Metamorphose.org SUGGESTION BOX
thread. :-)
I believe that the thread Alan refers to http://metamorphose.org/thread/show.htp?threadid=14151&se0=thread&se1=show
which points (in post # 13) to a PDF file he shared: http://www.mediafire.com/view/?scuas34bnl4q8sc
Interesting. Two differing perspectives on the differences between
genders. That's what I love about all of you - the enlightening and
educational discussions that we can have.
What I'm gathering from lily is that if any of us TG-minded folk
were to actually swap or TF, then our experience could vary a great
bit from what Alan describes... or it could be much the same as
what Alan experienced. Depends on many different factors such as
our educational level, location, and "class". Am I understanding
that correctly lily?
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From: guest (lily)
, 122 months, post #17 |
cj -
What I tried to say, in too many words, was that "Men Are From
Mars. Women Are From Venus" and "You Just Don' Understand' Men and
Women in Conversation" are both crap.
We tend to believe this crap because the selectively presented
studies in those two -- dated and deeply flawed books -- are
intended to confirm what we think we know about the differences in
the way men and women behave.
It is an example of confirmation bias, in which we accept as true
those reports which seem to validate the gender stereotypes we
learned from our parents and our peers, and discount as irrelevant
anything that tends to refute those stereotypes.
A lot of those stereotypes are artifacts of a time in the west when
few women worked outside of the home, and those who did were mostly
confined to a "pink collar" ghetto.
Stereotypically gendered behavior varies with culture (which is
what I was getting at with the fractured reference to Arab men
holding hands and kissing each other) and is NOT universal across
cultures.
I was trying to explain that the differences in measurable
tendencies or traits between adult men and adult women are
differences in the averages of the indices for these two
populations, and that that difference is ALWAYS very small compared
to the overlap between the two groups. Most people in both groups
communicate in exactly the same ways.
If you were to swap, what you would find -- I think -- is that
women behave pretty much the same way that men behave. Controlling
for culture, wealth, and education, conversations between women
sound pretty much like the conversations between men.
There are two things going on with education and economic class.
The degree to which gendered behavior diverges decreases with
increased wealth and education. The behavior of laboring class
women differs more from the behavior of laboring class men than
women in white collar professions from the behavior of men in those
professions.
Also, and separately, the behavior of highly educated men is more
like the behavior of highly educated women than it is like the
behavior of uneducated men (the same goes for highly
educates/uneducated women).
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From: guest (Alan Barrie)
, 122 months, post #18 |
Actually, I have no argument with Lily's well-supported position:
that the range of personalities and types of behaviors of men
greatly overlaps the range of personalities and types of behaviors
of women.
But, in making that argument, all she has done is set up a straw
man and then knocked it down.
In both of her long posts making that argument, she has barely
addressed the actual subject at hand, the subject included in cj's
OP "would love" list; and, of course, the subject of my post to
this thread. There is only this one, unconvincing, line:
"Controlling for culture, wealth, and education, conversations
between women sound pretty much like the conversations between
men."
It's actually an aside, to concede that certainly, both Gray and
Tannen had critics. (Although I did find the cited feminist screed
attack on Tannen singularly unconvincing and dated it its feminist
myopia; and not only because it is from a minor linguistics scholar
from Montclair State College challenging a world-renowned
linguistics scholar from Georgetown with a half dozen books and a
plethora of scholarly articles on her resume.)
But, again, anyway, challenging the ideas of Gray and Tannen to
support a position largely immaterial to the discussion at hand is
just another component of the straw man tactic. Sure, I used some
of Gray's and Tannen's ideas in developing my own opinions (and
experiences) about the nature of social interaction between women
and how it is different from that between men.
I'd love to read her own developed beliefs about the real subject
at hand. Is it really just that one line quoted above?
So, I ask of Lily, two things:
(1) Do you personally believe that women socialize with other women
in the same way that men socialize with other men or that the two
sexes socialize with one another?; and
(2) Do you not find cj's OP "would love" entry intriguing: that it
would be really interesting to have the opportunity to have the
unqualified experience of being a woman socializing with other
women in order to experience that difference?
My position on these two questions is clearly stated in my original
post:
(1) I do believe that they are very different; and (2) that
experiencing that difference is one of very most interesting things
that could happen to an intellectually curious man newly
transformed into a woman.
To me, this is the kind of thing real metamorphosis ideas should be
about; not just, for example, what it would feel like to have a
couple of breasts bouncing on my chest.
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From: guest (lily the longwinded)
, 122 months, post #19 |
@Alan Barrie #18 But, in making that argument, all she has done is set up a straw
man and then knocked it down.
There was no straw man because I wan't making an argument. You
mentioned two books which are full of crap, I pointed out that they
are full of crap and why.
(1) Do you personally believe that women socialize with other women
in the same way that men socialize with other men or that the two
sexes socialize with one another?
What I "personally believe"? I am scientist. I am not interested in
what any one person -- myself included -- might "believe".
You appear to be asserting that there are categorical differences
in the way that men and women interact within gender cohorts, and
across gender cohorts.
Evidence suggests (see the paper by Carothers & Reis, also linked above
) that this is not so (see the the discussion of Intimacy and
Interpersonal Orientation metrics).
I would contend (if I were inclined to contend with you at all)
that there is no way that every woman will interact with other
women that is different from the ways that every man will interact
with every man. Nor is every interaction between men and women
inflected by gendered differences in communications styles or
expectations.
Ask the question again but be more specific.
Do women engage in casual conversation with strangers encountered
in sex-segrerated public restrooms more often than do men in the
men? (my experience suggests that they do not).
Are women more likely than men to be seeking commiseration and
sympathy (rather than advice) when they complain to their partners
about a difficult situation at work? (I don't know, but I suspect
not. Anecdotally, I know lots of very manly men who might talk-out
their stress, looking only for supportive comments like "that's
harsh" or "sorry, that sucks")
(2) Do you not find cj's OP "would love" entry intriguing: that it
would be really interesting to have the opportunity to have the
unqualified experience of being a woman socializing with other
women in order to experience that difference?
Not particularly, no -- but my circumstances and experiences are
very different from CJ's and (I am guessing) different from yours
^-^
Although I did find the cited feminist screed attack on Tannen
singularly unconvincing and dated it its feminist myopia; and not
only because it is from a minor linguistics scholar from Montclair
State College challenging a world-renowned linguistics scholar from
Georgetown with a half dozen books and a plethora of scholarly
articles on her resume
You see my "straw man" and raise with an appeal to authority and
appeal to popularity...
I am trans and I am a feminist. And this exchange seems like a
pretty good point at which to take a break from posting here.
So I am not accused of a ring-and-run, I'll answer if Alan has
anything else he'd like ask or assert, otherwise I am stepping out.
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From: guest (Alan Barrie)
, 122 months, post #20 |
I, too, am done with the discussion of one of the OP "love to"
entries: the entry on being a woman socializing with women.
And I apologize to cj for contributing to letting his OP string
(which is worthy of wide-ranging discussion on each of the entries)
devolve into a pissing match of comparative rigorousness of
research and thought on that one entry.
I guess, when I shared my personal beliefs on that entry, it was a
mistake to credit some earlier writings on the subject as a partial
source of my beliefs. And I have no real interest in mounting a
defense of their work. For a board like this one, it probably would
have been better to just state what I believe.
Again, on Carothers and Reis's dense paper that concludes that men
and women are more alike than they are different,I have no quarrel.
Nevertheless, I am unconvinced by Lily. I do still believe that
women behave differently among women than men behave among men. And
that exploring that difference would be an interesting thing for a
transformed man to do.
As a trans woman, I think Lily could better convince me with
personal experience and anecdote than by burying her head and mine
in some statistical concepts that are, frankly, beyond me.
For obvious reasons, I'm now a bit hesitant to go on to my next
favorite "love to" in cj's original list. That's the one where cj's
intrigued by the idea of being an attractive woman among men.
Personally, I think he has a perfect right to include "attractive"
in his "love to." It's his list after all.
Being attractive. Being an "object" to a male's view (in the French
existentialist sense). Being a possible partner for romance and/or
sex from the other side. That's all is fascinating.
Perhaps someone else can start the ball rolling on that one?
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information on where to obtain the material.
- Please have some patience. Not everyone visits the board daily.
Your post may not be seen (by someone with the correct information
or idea) for several days or weeks.
- No bumping. Bumping will be treated as intentional spamming.
Advertising
- Do not post advertisements.
- One exception is for products or services that relate to entries on
this site. And even then, only post an announcement once. You
should add links or content to the appropriate database entries. Do
not repeat this information to the message board. Doing so will be
considered spamming.
Miscellaneous
- This list is neither all-inclusive or all-exclusive in nature, and
is meant to guide everyone on appropriate content for and conduct
on this Message Board.
- The purpose of this Message Board is to share information about
transformation-related content, news, ideas, etc. Also acceptable,
are conversations that are of interest to the transformation
community.
- Moderation of posts for reasons not listed above are at the
discretion of the Trusted Users who moderate this website, for the
purpose of keeping things within the "spirit" of the owner's wishes
and the website's purpose.
- If you disagree with a moderation decision, please make an argument
as to why it should be reinstated. Use the posting guidelines to justify your point.
Do not attack the moderator.
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